уберите эту стремоту уже
Nah Bro as a chess fan, I've known yoo for a while and would have never thought things would end up this way for him
@NatalijaFirenkova said in #157:
> Oh yeah chess makes you a stalker just like videogames make you violent and vaccines give you autism, right?
I think that you may have misconstrued my comment. I was referencing the chess player that thinks that a high rating makes them a better person than someone else. These are the 'pencil necks' that I was referencing. Nah mean? No hate to the people that truly love the game and don't even care about their rating.
The newest generation of kids hasn't been taught ethics by their coaches. it's just sad
@NLPS said in #151:
> That teaser image is brutal. A simple photo would have been more appropriate.
Let's use the words (not)"appropriate" and "brutal" to talk about Yoo's behavior instead of @QueenRosieMary 's drawings. seems more appropriate. Do you realise the irony of using these words to point out QueenRosieMary's acts instead of Yoo's? This kind of stuff is the reason why on average aggressors benefit of impunity and targets get harassed a second time by popular opinion. Thx for nothing.
@Decade said in #159:
> I am just more inclined to think about this as a troubled youth, he needs time off maybe a few years, but a complete lifeban or sth is too out of place.
I agree that lifeban is tricky. People can change, and this needs to be acknowledge. However, the ban should last as long as even the smallest risk of repeating this behavior exists. Which could be life long.
However, thinking about this as troubled youth (or mental illness as other did) is highly problematic. Most troubled young people don't go around physically and sexually aggressing people. Fixing this behavior is an other task than fixing the troubles of the young person, or curing mental illness. and focusing on the wrong task is the best way to make sure the right task will never be achieved.
@RebelJohnny said in #164:
> The newest generation of kids hasn't been taught ethics by their coaches. it's just sad
That's probably because the Coaches are on average even worse. Sexual and sexist violences are actually receding (iirc), when one looks over the last century or so. But we talk about it more. Which is a good thing.
I mean, we have had 30+ years old GMs on @lichess being proud of giving really toxic "dating" "advice", objectifying women, and generally speaking giving masculinist life advice (oh and also, admitted to things close to stalking in a now moderated blog, iirc). These people even have a partnership with Lichess, for some advertisement tournament. So even Lichess, who is an entity that tries really hard to be respectful of all humans and do things right, Helps toxic people have visibility and power over present and future students.
The world, including the Chess word, is rotten with sexist behaviors. It is important to point out when these behaviors become extreme. But it is not sufficient. Physical sexual aggression are only possible on this scale because the smaller behaviors are tolerated and partly encouraged/facilitated.
This story is not in the slightest surprising. it is the logical conclusion of the (chess) world closing their eyes until it's way too late. Some are more responsible than others. But looking carefully, Even our beloved charity FOSS chess website takes an active part in reinforcing toxic and sexist behaviors by GMs, or at least giving them legitimacy and visibility. Might be an honest mistake, and it doesn't mean that Lichess is all bad, but it shows how deep the root of the problem actually is.
Yoo is only a symptom. The problem is all of us having the slider "what is acceptable behavior" being in the green until someone gets really badly hurt.
Also, why did the Niemann alleged cheating did way more waves than Yoo's unambiguous aggression? that's how F'ed our sliders are, if this helps.
So yeah, Yoo might be a dangerous person. but we all have to accept our responsibility in how this came to be possible and so frequent.
Oh well, I'm probably talking in the void anyways, caus let's be honest, who is gonna start questioning themselves because of a online comment?
@TurtleMat said in #165:
> Let's use the words (not)"appropriate" and "brutal" to talk about Yoo's behavior instead of @QueenRosieMary 's drawings. seems more appropriate. Do you realise the irony of using these words to point out QueenRosieMary's acts instead of Yoo's? This kind of stuff is the reason why on average aggressors benefit of impunity and targets get harassed a second time by popular opinion. Thx for nothing.
Yes, I thought that too, attacking the (woman) writing the article, rather than criticising the subject of the article.
And then further compounding it by posting (AI-generated) "sketches" of me with spots added on the second picture, which were not in the original photo used to generate this image. I have since taken this photo down from the public domain as I tend to when people start being weird with me. As it happens, I like that photo and have very happy memories associated with it, winning my second WC title, but the intention of that poster was clear, to ridicule me as the author, and as an artist, and distract away from the actual problem.
>
> I agree that lifeban is tricky. People can change, and this needs to be acknowledge. However, the ban should last as long as even the smallest risk of repeating this behavior exists. Which could be life long.
Yes, agree
> However, thinking about this as troubled youth (or mental illness as other did) is highly problematic. Most troubled young people don't go around physically and sexually aggressing people. Fixing this behavior is an other task than fixing the troubles of the young person, or curing mental illness. and focusing on the wrong task is the best way to make sure the right task will never be achieved.
>
Also agree.
> That's probably because the Coaches are on average even worse. Sexual and sexist violences are actually receding (iirc), when one looks over the last century or so. But we talk about it more. Which is a good thing.
>
Yes, I know people whose chess coach abused them.
> I mean, we have had 30+ years old GMs on @lichess being proud of giving really toxic "dating" "advice", objectifying women, and generally speaking giving masculinist life advice (oh and also, admitted to things close to stalking in a now moderated blog, iirc). These people even have a partnership with Lichess, for some advertisement tournament. So even Lichess, who is an entity that tries really hard to be respectful of all humans and do things right, Helps toxic people have visibility and power over present and future students.
>
Agree, this is problematic, and for me personally I did a lot of thinking before deciding to take part in it. Trying to balance out the negatives of what you have mentioned, which I also didn't like btw, with the positives of streaming, increasing my visibility and reach to be able to talk about this sort of thing more effectively. Does my participation negate the basic message of what I am saying? idk, I hope not. Also, the organsation sponsoring is more than just that one person.
> The world, including the Chess word, is rotten with sexist behaviors. It is important to point out when these behaviors become extreme. But it is not sufficient. Physical sexual aggression are only possible on this scale because the smaller behaviors are tolerated and partly encouraged/facilitated.
>
Yes, looking the other way is not always a passive behaviour.
> This story is not in the slightest surprising. it is the logical conclusion of the (chess) world closing their eyes until it's way too late. Some are more responsible than others. But looking carefully, Even our beloved charity FOSS chess website takes an active part in reinforcing toxic and sexist behaviors by GMs, or at least giving them legitimacy and visibility. Might be an honest mistake, and it doesn't mean that Lichess is all bad, but it shows how deep the root of the problem actually is.
>
> Yoo is only a symptom. The problem is all of us having the slider "what is acceptable behavior" being in the green until someone gets really badly hurt.
> Also, why did the Niemann alleged cheating did way more waves than Yoo's unambiguous aggression? that's how F'ed our sliders are, if this helps.
> So yeah, Yoo might be a dangerous person. but we all have to accept our responsibility in how this came to be possible and so frequent.
>
it is a whole society problem I agree.
> Oh well, I'm probably talking in the void anyways, caus let's be honest, who is gonna start questioning themselves because of a online comment?
People are reading it more than you think, some of them will hopefully reflect.
Thank you for your answer :)
@QueenRosieMary said in #166:
> Agree, this is problematic, and for me personally I did a lot of thinking before deciding to take part in it. Trying to balance out the negatives of what you have mentioned, which I also didn't like btw, with the positives of streaming, increasing my visibility and reach to be able to talk about this sort of thing more effectively. Does my participation negate the basic message of what I am saying? idk, I hope not.
How I understand things, the message is never influenced in any way by who the person is that's telling it. Ideas have merit (or not) on their own, the messenger is irrelevant. if the worst person in the world says something right, the thing is right. And I beleive you already know this, but I find your message really important, well presented, and I am gratefull for the time and energy you put in spreading this message.
I do think that participating in this tournament is a bad thing, that supports and give power to the wrong people. I understand that doing bad things is sometimes required in our society even to simply have a decent life. Even as a rather consequentialist/utilitarist person, I couldn't tell if supporting them is outweigh by the exposure you get for your message. But this is a personal choice that has nothing to do with the message.
What I do really find problematic is Lichess supporting them, giving them a platform to spread their crap. Your participation is not giving them that much power. Lichess partnership is. Also, you are a private person, Lichess is not.
> Also, the organsation sponsoring is more than just that one person.
Other of their organisation have jumped in to defend their practices. Also, the organisation is responsible for who they put in the foreground of their public relations affairs. I do see them all as problematic, not only their PR star.
@QueenRosieMary said in #166:
> People are reading it more than you think, some of them will hopefully reflect.
Finger crossed :)
@Kshetra0323 said in #147:
> even if he apologized I still feel like something is wrong I mean 4th degree assault that is not right and saying housekeeping at the door and knocking the door for 10 min or so is beyond limits he should be suspended for 2 years AT LEAST!
Totally agree.
As bad as the 4th degree assault is, (which is bad enough to be arrested), he could claim he was in a rage and "just snapped", which could be an anger management issue. However, following someone to their room and knocking on the door for 10 minutes saying "housekeeping" is not a rage, it's calculated, and could be an even bigger big red flag.
@SummerThereof said in #168:
> Totally agree.
>
> As bad as the 4th degree assault is, (which is bad enough to be arrested), he could claim he was in a rage and "just snapped", which could be an anger management issue. However, following someone to their room and knocking on the door for 10 minutes saying "housekeeping" is not a rage, it's calculated, and could be an even bigger big red flag.
We can only imagine what would've happened if he was able to enter the room. He should go into a class for anger management tho.
These cases seem to be female related.
Ban him from all platforms and OTB tournaments!!