Which side are you on? 76% of Americans approved of President Trump's new speech

@Noflaps said in #40:

I didn't ask you to "say" anything, @daloser.

You are free, however, to look into the facts. You might find them surprising, if you do! I've ACTUALLY checked the brackets I referenced, for example.

And as for as Trump being "such a bad president," you are welcome to your opinion. My memory of Trump's first term is still fresh -- and until Covid hit (which was hardly Trump's fault), many Democrats had the uneasy feeling that he would be unbeatable for a second term.

Turns out that, in the long run, they were right!

I'm tired, sorry, but let me say something else, so I do not need to think so much...

The GOP knew since GWB, they would not win any popular vote in the near future.
That's why the party followed the Big Lie and stirred up so many disappointed voters, despite Barr, Meadow a. o., despite the "whisker"word of Trump. Then Jan 6 happened and all the stuff afterwards... allegations. indictments, convictions... many people got even more railed up...
Trump would never be in Office, if the Congress would have had impeached him for 1/6. (remember McConnel, Graham)
It's the insanity, caused by reckless, shameless and brutal propaganda. which made Trump's come back possible.
Not facts, not economy, not the border, not immigration, not nothing. There would be a DeSantis or Nikki Haley or someone else with a probably less stupid agenda.

But there was one candidate, who had the intellect, the courage and the spine to stand up to a corrupt and intoxicated GOP and a selfish psychopath, to offer the nation a new start with a healthy and trustworthy conservatism.
But the conservatives had been brainwashed and blinded and desperately tried to hang on and stay in power with their "guy".
Only a few recognized him.
It was former Rep. Will Hurd, (R, Texas)

Trump's tyranny today became possible only because of that Big Lie and because too many Americans didn't pay attention.
When the American apocalypse is over, it will take the people of the US many decades to repair the good faith in their own
country, into a democracy and to start all over again. But the Great Experience is over, once and for all!

@da_loser , what if ... it is not the majority of voting Americans who are falling for propaganda at this point? (Namely, the same majority that elected Trump and turned away from the last four years for reasons that seem pretty obvious).

Is that barely possible? You refer to the "Big Lie," and even capitalize it. That sounds like a packaged idea that you've heard before, from others.

For the last four years, I've heard all sorts of notions promulgated and accepted by the Left that were apparently not at all true. Yet you seem to think it is the average Republican or Independent voter who is being effectively propagandized?

It's a commonplace for people to think that those who disagree with them are the ones who can't see clearly. Sometimes it's true. Sometimes it's not.

Was America's southern border REALLY secure for the four years of Joe Biden's term, as we were assured? Did America REALLY need "new law" to secure it, as some others claimed -- or just a new president? Was Joe Biden really still at the top of his game, and capable of working the youngsters into the ground, during the last part of his term? Was inflation nothing to worry about, and transitory? Where are the infamous "pee tapes" ? Was The Laptop a fable, a Republican talking point, that didn't really exist? I'm sure I could think of other things to ask. Indeed, I can! But why belabor the point.

The point is that none of us should ever be too sure that it's the other guy who is being fooled and indoctrinated. I've confronted a LOT of certainty over the last four years that I thought was quite questionable, and, frankly, I feel rather vindicated in my skepticism, now that the passage of time has unveiled some apparent and sometimes unfashionable truths.

In any event, I think the most practical way to avoid accidental indoctrination is to bravely attend to a wide DIVERSITY of respectable sources for our news and punditry. Not just the same old tired sources that seem often to be oddly, even eerily, in lockstep. And when a source gets things wrong over and over, I try to notice.

Don't get me started about manifestations of being oddly in lockstep to a point that it begins to look like figurative choreography. I don't want to type for another ten minutes.

It's interesting to notice when things that "everybody, like, knows, you know?" turn out not to be the case.

@Noflaps said in #42:

In any event, I think the most practical way to avoid accidental indoctrination is to bravely attend to a wide DIVERSITY of respectable sources for our news and punditry. Not just the same old tired sources that seem often to be oddly, even eerily, in lockstep. And when a source gets things wrong over and over, I try to notice.

Let me guess you're watching "Nazi News" and "Information for fascists" ?

I agree that information can be biased. That is why we must stick to the facts. Trump and his pitbull insulted Zelensky at the White House in front of the cameras and threw him out. He suspended aid to Ukraine and took the side of Russia and North Korea at the United Nations. He is very disrespectful by constantly treating our Prime Minister as a simple governor. Make no mistake, Trump is considered a traitor by the vast majority of Canadians, including myself, and by just as many politicians and people in the free world outside the United States.

Example of USA Nazi news:

1. Trump insulted Trudeau the other day by alling him "governor Trudeau" iinstead of his correct title "Prime minister" in his Truth Social post announcing the tariffs. This insult also has the backdrop if a threat if invasion and annexion

2. Trudeau then in his video reply insults Trump back by calling him "Donald".

Trudeau's insult is way lighter actually, as there's no threat.

The lying scum working for Fox news then comments on Trudeau's video. They're all shocked that Trudeau would insult poor Trump.

The fact that Trump started the insulting with his "governor Trudeau" post they lust pretend it never happened and also the "small" fact that Trump has threatened to annex Canada is also just ignored.

It has nothing to do with news anymore - this is propaganda like in the Sovjet union or Nazi Germany,

They want to exalt their Führer Trump.

There is a lot of talk by democrats and republicans of propaganda. There always has been. What is happening now is that the narratives being pushed by these sides have gotten more different, allowing us to see where propaganda is taking place.

I have a buddy who kept telling me that the reason that I disliked Trump was not because of Trump's actions, but because of propaganda-- after all, the news sources I read do tend to have a slight left-bias. I didn't think this to be the case, but it gave me pause.

Since then, I make a point of using rational analysis, ignoring any news narratives-- which, unlike the facts portrayed, are typically misleading-- and relying on my knowledge and core values to make any judgements. Among my strongest views:

• I believe that the government should exist primarily as an entity to protect rights
• I support the free market, trade, and minimal regulations
• I am a strict constitutionalist
• I believe that, in general, any form of tangible harmful discrimination is wrong; however, I extend that belief to specialized protections in the law (i.e., I believe that laws should protect everyone, rather than having specific laws for specific groups that are targeted).
• I believe in careful change
• I believe the government should never act as an extension of an individual's will, especially if that will is intent on harming others

Given that set of beliefs (as well as others-- these are merely some of the more important ones to the discussion), I analyzed (and continue to analyze) Trump's peformance, using news sources solely for information while discarding narratives. This way, I can use Fox News as effectively as the AP.

Now, some people could point out that the way I see discrimination could be a point in Trump's favor, on account of dismantling DEI initiative; similarly, my stance on regulations seems to be more in line with Trump. However, the destructive way he's doing these things is not earning him points in my book-- if you want to roll these things back, it shouldn't be a punishment on the Democrats, and it needs to be done properly so you don't harm those who were supported by earlier rules. Inevitably, upon my rational analysis of Trump's actions, I find myself thinking the same thing. To wit:

"Holy fuck, our supreme executive is a dumbass"

In a political environment that is increasingly ruled by morons (seriously-- at Trump's speech, we had people waving props and the "na na na na, hey hey, goodbye" chant. It had all the decorum of a college basketball rivalry game), I think the rational analysis route is the only way to judge government officials.

What I increasingly see, though, is people tailoring their views to whatever Trump says or does. Changing views can show openness to new ideas, in which case it can be a very good thing, but only if it is done organically. However, I know quite a few Republicans who have done philosophical 180s on their views of the market or diplomacy, not because of a new understanding, but because Trump says something is a good idea. Similarly, I have seen a number of Democrats, in their eagerness to oppose Trump, swap views to give them another talking point. I think these two groups are the ones that I would define as "brainwashed".

@clousems I am seeing that too.

I feel that many Trump-supporters do not really have fixed views.

They seem to be more like "I follow whereever my tribe is going."

Like two months ago they were like "Canada are our friends". Then Trump decided it's fun to want to annex them and starts a trade war with them for no reason - and now I am seeing Trump supporters talking about Canada like they're your arch enemy, Like they want to destroy Canada's economy.

So OK, it is more understandable if you've always hated Canada for some strange reason.

But it is mindblowing how people can do from LIKING Canada and then wanting to crush them - just because Trump said "let's crush Canada for no reason". Then they just forget they liked Canada and go "yeah yeah destroy destrouy".

You can go and look on social media yourself.

And it follows the same pattern with pretty much anything. Whatever they like, then Trump says I hate it and then they forgot they liked it and start hating on it.

I think soon you will be like"United Kingdom has always been our true enemy" because Trump and Vance started hating on UK. I reckon because they want to pull out of Trident.

It reminds me the US movie "The Mortal Storm" about when Nazism took over in Germany. Only this time it's in USA. Especially this thing that people change their views to fit the situation and what the leadership is saying.

You also remind me of a character in the movie, the one sane person in the madness.

@Raspberry_yoghurt , re your #43, please read more carefully. In my post #42 I carefully qualified by saying "respectable" sources.

I do not consider Nazis -- to the doubtful extent any even remain -- to be "respectable." To the contrary, I detest Hitler and any who might follow his ideology today, if some can actually find any (as opposed to thinking or claiming, for political purposes, that they dwell under every bed).

I've noticed that some on the Left throw that word around a lot. I wish they wouldn't. It's so 2022 of them, and Daddy's home. It's best to make real arguments, give real responses, and not just name-call.

In post #47, @Raspberry_yoghurt writes:

"I [referring to Raspberry_youghurt, not Noflaps] feel that many Trump-supporters do not really have fixed views.

They seem to be more like "I follow whereever my tribe is going."

Am I the only one who finds that to be a rather ironic post?

Many liberals now "protect women's rights" by INSISTING that biological men be allowed to play in "women's" sports. Indeed, many "women's" records have fallen to biological men, leaving girls who have trained with vast discipline for years with no shot. Making their goals unattainable and leading to injury.

Is that helping women? Is that protecting their rights, or even their opportunities? I can hardly await reading the strident justifications.

Many liberals now rage because Trump is trying to END the war in Ukraine. What happened to liberals being devotedly anti-war? Remember the 60s? Peace, love, dove!

Not anymore.

Well, to wrap this up let me say it --- yet again -- I do NOT agree with everything Trump does or says, although I find many of the harsh descriptions of his behavior or speech to be rather ... precious.

His every gentle joke is .. OH NO! AN OUTRAGE!

And his attempts to identify and stop waste and abuse in government are ... OH NO! AN OUTRAGE!

Give me a break, as many say.

During Trump's recent speech we saw a sea of Democrats sitting down and refusing to stand (unlike most others in the room) when various brave women, men and kids were honored by Trump.

Why would they not stand and applaud? Who knows. It makes NO sense to me. You'll have to ask them. But let's not pretend that the Democrat sitters weren't acting in concert, and contrary to how Democrats used to act dependably.

I don't think it was a good look. Judging by polled reactions, I'm not the only one.

There are SEVERAL media sources that sing the same tune -- even, sometimes, weirdly using some of the exact same words in the exact same context, making the use of shared "talking points" seem to me quite likely. But there are relatively few sources not following along. So, if one attends to even several of those same, apparently like-minded sources, and none of the relatively few others, one might get the impression that one is carefully informed and never know the difference.

I've already gone through the list of serious issues that MANY media outlets have gotten wrong over the last several years. I won't bother to go through it again. And judging by the results of the last election, I don't need to do so. The cat is now, as they say, apparently "out of the bag."

@Cheshire_the_Maomao said in #5:

Yes, but isn't 76% still much higher than 51%?

Almost all neutrals support their legal President. What a surprise for democrats!

That is not how math works. Doesn't mean that almost all independents support the president. It is means that the independents who watched the speech support Trump. Independents who don't like Trump didn't watch the speech. Also there is a small number of democrats who support Trump, they too are more likely to watch the speech than those who don't.