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Has anyone else seen the video of trump and zelensky argument??

#41

Oh, we all get some things wrong from time to time, @CCAK0123456789 . But you had the courage to post rather than to merely spectate, and I respect that. And you don't seem at all impolite or dishonest -- so I respect that even more!

I hope we will continue to see you around the forum.

Edit: to be clear, making a mistake doesn't automatically suggest that somebody is "dishonest." If somebody misstates some historical truth UNINTENTIONALLY, I do not consider that to be "lying." We all make mistakes and carry around some believed inaccuracies, from time to time. Forums, if used in good faith, can help to make us ALL more well informed, over time.

Oh, we all get some things wrong from time to time, @CCAK0123456789 . But you had the courage to post rather than to merely spectate, and I respect that. And you don't seem at all impolite or dishonest -- so I respect that even more! I hope we will continue to see you around the forum. Edit: to be clear, making a mistake doesn't automatically suggest that somebody is "dishonest." If somebody misstates some historical truth UNINTENTIONALLY, I do not consider that to be "lying." We all make mistakes and carry around some believed inaccuracies, from time to time. Forums, if used in good faith, can help to make us ALL more well informed, over time.
#42

@Noflaps said in #41:

Oh, we all get some things wrong from time to time, @CCAK0123456789 . But you had the courage to post rather than to merely spectate, and I respect that. And you don't seem at all impolite or dishonest -- so I respect that even more!

I hope we will continue to see you around the forum.

Thank you, my friend. I’ll consider you my friend from now :)

@Noflaps said in #41: > Oh, we all get some things wrong from time to time, @CCAK0123456789 . But you had the courage to post rather than to merely spectate, and I respect that. And you don't seem at all impolite or dishonest -- so I respect that even more! > > I hope we will continue to see you around the forum. Thank you, my friend. I’ll consider you my friend from now :)
#43

In number #36, @what_game_is_this wrote:

"Russia started the war. You should put pressure to stop the war on Russia. Not the victim, Ukraine."

What makes you think that "no" pressure is being put on Russia? If "no" pressure is being put on Russia, why do you think their economy will collapse, as you apparently hope to depend upon, judging by this additional statement by you in 34:

"The right way to defeat Russia is to continue as now. Their economy will collapse."

Man, a sudden withdrawal from the war by Russia WOULD be delightful. I quite agree with that! And, who knows, you MIGHT be right in thinking it will happen if we "continue as now." Indeed, I HOPE you are right. But is it barely possible that you are not?

In anv event, "continuing as now" seems to require HUGE expenditure by America and others, and -- more poignantly -- it seems to require continue massive death and destruction. I am troubled by the thought of more and more young men dying and cities being destroyed if there is some practical, relatively small compromise that might stop it.

It is easy for any of us to type, far away from the battlefield and from any direct obligation to pay for the crippling costs of war (or to guide a nation that we are obligated to run), to simply demand that matters "continue as now."

But I don't blame Trump, or think he is somehow a monster or a buffoon, for merely trying to find some workable relatively small compromise to end a war or (and this seems even more likely) to find a way not to drive America's MASSIVE national debt STILL MUCH HIGHER without finding SOME way to offset that debt to some extent.

The "compromise" MIGHT simply be to provide America wlith SOME help to continue funding, so that your theory of Russian collapse can be tested in real life. Trump doesn't seem to be exploring "surrender" options or "capitulation" or "appeasement" options -- he seems to be trying to inspire realistic, practical thinking that is NOT just one-sided and that could reimburse America to some extent for massive further expenditure.

In the real world -- as opposed to the world of angry political talking points and echo-chamber nodding, practicalities have to be taken into account. Even mighty America, with its many, many decades of financial assistance to others that can't simply be dismissed or ignored, has a genuine need to handle its own finances realistically and not just keep degrading its own currency endlessly. What's so selfish about TRYING to work out a deal that would help repay America for any continuous massive flow of assistance in order to test the optimistic theory of @what_game_is_this ?

Might Trump get some of this wrong? Well, I hope not but, sure, nobody's infallible. And Trump is not hiding in the basement -- he's TRYING and being transparent with his nation in a way that is frankly refreshing.

Perhaps we should all CONSIDER that this mess is far more complicated and challenging than any few talking points can quickly dismiss. This has been going on FOR YEARS now. And perhaps we should take care not to seize on every opportunity to try to score POLITICAL points. The real world needs good solutions, not just politically convenient diatribes.

I won't hold my breath, of course. I try to be practical, too.

In number #36, @what_game_is_this wrote: "Russia started the war. You should put pressure to stop the war on Russia. Not the victim, Ukraine." What makes you think that "no" pressure is being put on Russia? If "no" pressure is being put on Russia, why do you think their economy will collapse, as you apparently hope to depend upon, judging by this additional statement by you in 34: "The right way to defeat Russia is to continue as now. Their economy will collapse." Man, a sudden withdrawal from the war by Russia WOULD be delightful. I quite agree with that! And, who knows, you MIGHT be right in thinking it will happen if we "continue as now." Indeed, I HOPE you are right. But is it barely possible that you are not? In anv event, "continuing as now" seems to require HUGE expenditure by America and others, and -- more poignantly -- it seems to require continue massive death and destruction. I am troubled by the thought of more and more young men dying and cities being destroyed if there is some practical, relatively small compromise that might stop it. It is easy for any of us to type, far away from the battlefield and from any direct obligation to pay for the crippling costs of war (or to guide a nation that we are obligated to run), to simply demand that matters "continue as now." But I don't blame Trump, or think he is somehow a monster or a buffoon, for merely trying to find some workable relatively small compromise to end a war or (and this seems even more likely) to find a way not to drive America's MASSIVE national debt STILL MUCH HIGHER without finding SOME way to offset that debt to some extent. The "compromise" MIGHT simply be to provide America wlith SOME help to continue funding, so that your theory of Russian collapse can be tested in real life. Trump doesn't seem to be exploring "surrender" options or "capitulation" or "appeasement" options -- he seems to be trying to inspire realistic, practical thinking that is NOT just one-sided and that could reimburse America to some extent for massive further expenditure. In the real world -- as opposed to the world of angry political talking points and echo-chamber nodding, practicalities have to be taken into account. Even mighty America, with its many, many decades of financial assistance to others that can't simply be dismissed or ignored, has a genuine need to handle its own finances realistically and not just keep degrading its own currency endlessly. What's so selfish about TRYING to work out a deal that would help repay America for any continuous massive flow of assistance in order to test the optimistic theory of @what_game_is_this ? Might Trump get some of this wrong? Well, I hope not but, sure, nobody's infallible. And Trump is not hiding in the basement -- he's TRYING and being transparent with his nation in a way that is frankly refreshing. Perhaps we should all CONSIDER that this mess is far more complicated and challenging than any few talking points can quickly dismiss. This has been going on FOR YEARS now. And perhaps we should take care not to seize on every opportunity to try to score POLITICAL points. The real world needs good solutions, not just politically convenient diatribes. I won't hold my breath, of course. I try to be practical, too.
#44

It is USA that is pressuring Ukraine. Most of europe supports Ukraine.

No, I am not wrong in that the Russian economy is in a bad shape and will collapse. I don't know exact when. But it will eventually collapse.

Allowing Russia any success only encourages them and others to new wars. It increases the misery on earth. If we want peace must show tyrants that we don't tolerate wars.

If USA don't want to give away weapons, ask EU if they are willing to pay for them. Don't blackmail the viktim, Ukraine.

Don't forget, Russia started the war.

It is USA that is pressuring Ukraine. Most of europe supports Ukraine. No, I am not wrong in that the Russian economy is in a bad shape and will collapse. I don't know exact when. But it will eventually collapse. Allowing Russia any success only encourages them and others to new wars. It increases the misery on earth. If we want peace must show tyrants that we don't tolerate wars. If USA don't want to give away weapons, ask EU if they are willing to pay for them. Don't blackmail the viktim, Ukraine. Don't forget, Russia started the war.
#45

@what_game_is_this , is "most of Europe" willing to take over the complete cost of the war? You say America should "ask EU if they are willing to pay for them." Sure, America could ask. Indeed, if Europe is willing to take on the entire cost of the war, they don't have to wait "to be asked" do they?

The EU can VOLUNTEER at any time to take on the entire cost, can they not? Do you REALLY think they will? ACTUALLY?

Or is mentioning this possibility merely a way to deflect from really reflecting upon the dilemma I described.

I am NOT sympathizing with Russia. I am "forgetting" nothing.

But Trump has to consider not just the wishes of people who feel as you do. He also ACTUALLY has to consider the needs of the country he runs, too. It's sad that America doesn't have endless, unfathomable resources. But nobody does.

This war has been going on for many years. I'm REALLY impressed by the toughness of the Ukrainian people, and I still support Ukraine. But Trump, as the LEADER of his nation, cannot think ONLY about Ukraine. He would be lazy, or hiding from reality, if he didn't at least explore the possibility of protecting BOIH Ukraine and HIS OWN COUNTRY, America.

This might not please some in Europe or Canada, or some of Trump's ETERNAL, UNWAVERING political opponents at home (some of whom USED to seem reflexively anti-war, back before Trump entered politics, remember?)

But I would not respect Trump if he didn't consider the needs of his own nation, too, and TRY to come up with some reasonable compromise -- which is NOT NECESSARILY a compromise that ends the war. Indeed, it might be a compromise that HELPS KEEP THE WAR FUNDED.

Many (and I'm NOT directing this at @what_game_is_this, who seems both intelligent and sincere to me), are too busy gleefully and reflexively calling Trump a puppet or a buffoon to realize the possibility that I stated in the immediately preceding paragraph.

It's sad that politics has to surface in nearly every discussion of world events, but that seems to be the case. But reason and logic and understanding are not gained by calling Trump names or assuming he's a dullard or a monster. He's obviously not. But regardless of what Trump is or is not, the world and America itself are facing some real problems that cannot simply be ignored by resorting to talking points or slogans.

@what_game_is_this , is "most of Europe" willing to take over the complete cost of the war? You say America should "ask EU if they are willing to pay for them." Sure, America could ask. Indeed, if Europe is willing to take on the entire cost of the war, they don't have to wait "to be asked" do they? The EU can VOLUNTEER at any time to take on the entire cost, can they not? Do you REALLY think they will? ACTUALLY? Or is mentioning this possibility merely a way to deflect from really reflecting upon the dilemma I described. I am NOT sympathizing with Russia. I am "forgetting" nothing. But Trump has to consider not just the wishes of people who feel as you do. He also ACTUALLY has to consider the needs of the country he runs, too. It's sad that America doesn't have endless, unfathomable resources. But nobody does. This war has been going on for many years. I'm REALLY impressed by the toughness of the Ukrainian people, and I still support Ukraine. But Trump, as the LEADER of his nation, cannot think ONLY about Ukraine. He would be lazy, or hiding from reality, if he didn't at least explore the possibility of protecting BOIH Ukraine and HIS OWN COUNTRY, America. This might not please some in Europe or Canada, or some of Trump's ETERNAL, UNWAVERING political opponents at home (some of whom USED to seem reflexively anti-war, back before Trump entered politics, remember?) But I would not respect Trump if he didn't consider the needs of his own nation, too, and TRY to come up with some reasonable compromise -- which is NOT NECESSARILY a compromise that ends the war. Indeed, it might be a compromise that HELPS KEEP THE WAR FUNDED. Many (and I'm NOT directing this at @what_game_is_this, who seems both intelligent and sincere to me), are too busy gleefully and reflexively calling Trump a puppet or a buffoon to realize the possibility that I stated in the immediately preceding paragraph. It's sad that politics has to surface in nearly every discussion of world events, but that seems to be the case. But reason and logic and understanding are not gained by calling Trump names or assuming he's a dullard or a monster. He's obviously not. But regardless of what Trump is or is not, the world and America itself are facing some real problems that cannot simply be ignored by resorting to talking points or slogans.
#46

@Noflaps said in #32:

Trump does not "stand with Putin." Obviously.

Trump stands with the country that elected him.

Bravo MAGA!! Dream on!!

@Noflaps, please give me a call, when MAGA is done and your country is crippled.
I got some Champagne in my fridge. Thanks.

@Noflaps said in #32: > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > Trump does not "stand with Putin." Obviously. > > Trump stands with the country that elected him. Bravo MAGA!! Dream on!! @Noflaps, please give me a call, when MAGA is done and your country is crippled. I got some Champagne in my fridge. Thanks.
#47

Isn't it better to address what I actually say, by substantively refuting it, rather than muttering "MAGA" and then figuratively walking away satisfied?

I am a long time social liberal and fiscal conservative, who doesn't reflexively agree or disagree with Trump ... or with Bernie Sanders!

Resorting to labels is easy.

Finding our way out of this GENUINE dilemma is not so easy. To all I say: try to attend to a lot of different news sources, not just a familiar few. I've found it helps.

I really mean this. Too many people kid themselves about doing it. Few actually do it.

I hope we don't let ANYBODY feed us the same viewpoints, unchecked, over and over and over and over and over. It might be comforting to feel a part of some consistent crowd. But I don't think anybody is "always right."

Isn't it better to address what I actually say, by substantively refuting it, rather than muttering "MAGA" and then figuratively walking away satisfied? I am a long time social liberal and fiscal conservative, who doesn't reflexively agree or disagree with Trump ... or with Bernie Sanders! Resorting to labels is easy. Finding our way out of this GENUINE dilemma is not so easy. To all I say: try to attend to a lot of different news sources, not just a familiar few. I've found it helps. I really mean this. Too many people kid themselves about doing it. Few actually do it. I hope we don't let ANYBODY feed us the same viewpoints, unchecked, over and over and over and over and over. It might be comforting to feel a part of some consistent crowd. But I don't think anybody is "always right."
#48

@Noflaps said in #43:

In number #36, @what_game_is_this wrote:

"Russia started the war. You should put pressure to stop the war on Russia. Not the victim, Ukraine."

What makes you think that "no" pressure is being put on Russia? If "no" pressure is being put on Russia, why do you think their economy will collapse, as you apparently hope to depend upon, judging by this additional statement by you in 34:

"The right way to defeat Russia is to continue as now. Their economy will collapse."

Man, a sudden withdrawal from the war by Russia WOULD be delightful. I quite agree with that! And, who knows, you MIGHT be right in thinking it will happen if we "continue as now." Indeed, I HOPE you are right. But is it barely possible that you are not?

In anv event, "continuing as now" seems to require HUGE expenditure by America and others, and -- more poignantly -- it seems to require continue massive death and destruction. I am troubled by the thought of more and more young men dying and cities being destroyed if there is some practical, relatively small compromise that might stop it.

It is easy for any of us to type, far away from the battlefield and from any direct obligation to pay for the crippling costs of war (or to guide a nation that we are obligated to run), to simply demand that matters "continue as now."

But I don't blame Trump, or think he is somehow a monster or a buffoon, for merely trying to find some workable relatively small compromise to end a war or (and this seems even more likely) to find a way not to drive America's MASSIVE national debt STILL MUCH HIGHER without finding SOME way to offset that debt to some extent.

The "compromise" MIGHT simply be to provide America wlith SOME help to continue funding, so that your theory of Russian collapse can be tested in real life. Trump doesn't seem to be exploring "surrender" options or "capitulation" or "appeasement" options -- he seems to be trying to inspire realistic, practical thinking that is NOT just one-sided and that could reimburse America to some extent for massive further expenditure.

In the real world -- as opposed to the world of angry political talking points and echo-chamber nodding, practicalities have to be taken into account. Even mighty America, with its many, many decades of financial assistance to others that can't simply be dismissed or ignored, has a genuine need to handle its own finances realistically and not just keep degrading its own currency endlessly. What's so selfish about TRYING to work out a deal that would help repay America for any continuous massive flow of assistance in order to test the optimistic theory of @what_game_is_this ?

Might Trump get some of this wrong? Well, I hope not but, sure, nobody's infallible. And Trump is not hiding in the basement -- he's TRYING and being transparent with his nation in a way that is frankly refreshing.

Perhaps we should all CONSIDER that this mess is far more complicated and challenging than any few talking points can quickly dismiss. This has been going on FOR YEARS now. And perhaps we should take care not to seize on every opportunity to try to score POLITICAL points. The real world needs good solutions, not just politically convenient diatribes.

I won't hold my breath, of course. I try to be practical, too.

hey @Noflaps, how's the weather on Mars?

@Noflaps said in #43: > In number #36, @what_game_is_this wrote: > > "Russia started the war. You should put pressure to stop the war on Russia. Not the victim, Ukraine." > > What makes you think that "no" pressure is being put on Russia? If "no" pressure is being put on Russia, why do you think their economy will collapse, as you apparently hope to depend upon, judging by this additional statement by you in 34: > > "The right way to defeat Russia is to continue as now. Their economy will collapse." > > Man, a sudden withdrawal from the war by Russia WOULD be delightful. I quite agree with that! And, who knows, you MIGHT be right in thinking it will happen if we "continue as now." Indeed, I HOPE you are right. But is it barely possible that you are not? > > In anv event, "continuing as now" seems to require HUGE expenditure by America and others, and -- more poignantly -- it seems to require continue massive death and destruction. I am troubled by the thought of more and more young men dying and cities being destroyed if there is some practical, relatively small compromise that might stop it. > > It is easy for any of us to type, far away from the battlefield and from any direct obligation to pay for the crippling costs of war (or to guide a nation that we are obligated to run), to simply demand that matters "continue as now." > > But I don't blame Trump, or think he is somehow a monster or a buffoon, for merely trying to find some workable relatively small compromise to end a war or (and this seems even more likely) to find a way not to drive America's MASSIVE national debt STILL MUCH HIGHER without finding SOME way to offset that debt to some extent. > > The "compromise" MIGHT simply be to provide America wlith SOME help to continue funding, so that your theory of Russian collapse can be tested in real life. Trump doesn't seem to be exploring "surrender" options or "capitulation" or "appeasement" options -- he seems to be trying to inspire realistic, practical thinking that is NOT just one-sided and that could reimburse America to some extent for massive further expenditure. > > In the real world -- as opposed to the world of angry political talking points and echo-chamber nodding, practicalities have to be taken into account. Even mighty America, with its many, many decades of financial assistance to others that can't simply be dismissed or ignored, has a genuine need to handle its own finances realistically and not just keep degrading its own currency endlessly. What's so selfish about TRYING to work out a deal that would help repay America for any continuous massive flow of assistance in order to test the optimistic theory of @what_game_is_this ? > > Might Trump get some of this wrong? Well, I hope not but, sure, nobody's infallible. And Trump is not hiding in the basement -- he's TRYING and being transparent with his nation in a way that is frankly refreshing. > > Perhaps we should all CONSIDER that this mess is far more complicated and challenging than any few talking points can quickly dismiss. This has been going on FOR YEARS now. And perhaps we should take care not to seize on every opportunity to try to score POLITICAL points. The real world needs good solutions, not just politically convenient diatribes. > > I won't hold my breath, of course. I try to be practical, too. hey @Noflaps, how's the weather on Mars?
#49

Ah, your quick, satisfying refutation is to suggest that I'm on Mars?

I'm not, @da_loser . Honestly, I'm not. Indeed, I doubt that you really think I am. I think you're reasonably intelligent!

We can't yet land people on Mars. Someday, I hope, we will.

Who might do it? Elon Musk!

Oh no! Oh no!

Sorry, it is not my goal to create cognitive dissonance!

Why not try to argue with the points I've actually made -- carefully and thoughtfully -- instead of trying to portray me, personally, as a Mars dweller?

Wouldn't that be more fair and potentially persuasive? Sure, it might not be as easy! But let's not take the easy way out. Let's stick to the substance.

Ah, your quick, satisfying refutation is to suggest that I'm on Mars? I'm not, @da_loser . Honestly, I'm not. Indeed, I doubt that you really think I am. I think you're reasonably intelligent! We can't yet land people on Mars. Someday, I hope, we will. Who might do it? Elon Musk! Oh no! Oh no! Sorry, it is not my goal to create cognitive dissonance! Why not try to argue with the points I've actually made -- carefully and thoughtfully -- instead of trying to portray me, personally, as a Mars dweller? Wouldn't that be more fair and potentially persuasive? Sure, it might not be as easy! But let's not take the easy way out. Let's stick to the substance.
#50

@Noflaps said in #49:

Ah, your quick, satisfying refutation is to suggest that I'm on Mars?

I'm not, @da_loser . Honestly, I'm not. Indeed, I doubt that you really think I am. I think you're reasonably intelligent!

We can't yet land people on Mars. Someday, I hope, we will.

Who might do it? Elon Musk!

Oh no! Oh no!

Sorry, it is not my goal to create cognitive dissonance!

Why not try to argue with the points I've actually made -- carefully and thoughtfully -- instead of trying to portray me, personally, as a Mars dweller?

Wouldn't that be more fair and potentially persuasive? Sure, it might not be as easy! But let's not take the easy way out. Let's stick to the substance.

you want me to hit the button for a "heart" below your posts?
Ok.

@Noflaps said in #49: > Ah, your quick, satisfying refutation is to suggest that I'm on Mars? > > I'm not, @da_loser . Honestly, I'm not. Indeed, I doubt that you really think I am. I think you're reasonably intelligent! > > We can't yet land people on Mars. Someday, I hope, we will. > > Who might do it? Elon Musk! > > Oh no! Oh no! > > Sorry, it is not my goal to create cognitive dissonance! > > Why not try to argue with the points I've actually made -- carefully and thoughtfully -- instead of trying to portray me, personally, as a Mars dweller? > > Wouldn't that be more fair and potentially persuasive? Sure, it might not be as easy! But let's not take the easy way out. Let's stick to the substance. you want me to hit the button for a "heart" below your posts? Ok.

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