Has anyone else seen the video of trump and zelensky argument??

@CCAK0123456789 said in #26:

At the June 2021 Brussels summit, NATO leaders reiterated the decision taken at the 2008 Bucharest Summit that Ukraine would become a member of the Alliance with the NATO MAP as an integral part of the process and Ukraine's right to determine its own future and foreign policy course without outside interference.

1. The 2008 summit discussed a NATO membership for Ukraine but it was offered only as a general target without any time horizon. In fact Ukraine had been rejected an immediate membership. In 2021 when Russia invaded Ukraine they still were not a member and it was not on the cards. Anyone claiming that the invasion was a reaction to an imminent NATO membership is trying to bullshit.

2. You lied when you claimed Ukraine was already a NATO member.

3. Every country has the right to join any alliance that they want. Ukraine is a sovereign country and as such they have any right to apply for a NATO membership.
   Whoever claims that a sovereign country doesn't have this right and is allowed to be invaded by its bigger neighbour as a reaction to such an application either needs to prop up his knowledge about international right or he is simply an asshole.

tl/dr: Kindly read this entire post thoughtfully, not just the first sentence, before providing a scathing, emotional (yet no doubt fashionable!) response to it.

The post is written in good faith. I do NOT support Russia. I DO support Ukraine and the United States. But I try not to cling to slogans or belittling talking points rather than to reflection and objective analysis. I may fail at that sometimes, but I do try to get it right.

Trump does not "stand with Putin." Obviously.

Trump stands with the country that elected him. Even if that irritates some in other countries and even some in his own country. Many, in other countries, have been perfectly content to let America POUR wealth into THEIR defense for years on end. Why wouldn't they be?

What does that have to do with anything?

America is AWASH in national debt. A debt that clearly doesn't concern many in other countries and even some in his own country.

So, can America continue FOREVER to write huge black checks to ANYBODY? Try to answer that honestly, without letting some emotional monologues jump up and distract from the question.

Since it CAN'T lavish tens, even hundreds, of uncompensated billions upon others INDEFINITELY, there is a PRACTICAL reason to try to end a war that has been going on FOR YEARS, or AT LEAST to find some way to at least PARTIALLY compensate America (and, no doubt, some others) for any CONTINUING vast expenditure.

That, I believe, is what Trump is TRYING to accomplish.

Furthermore, there are more humanitarian reasons to end wars than there are practical ones. Wars kill people in large numbers and ruin cities and the countryside.

As a consequence, it is NOT MERE BUFFONERY to want to end wars.

But in order to end a war, there are only TWO WAYS to do it (correct me, if you can think of another way):

1. UTTERLY CRUSH the opposition (a method that does not remotely seem practical -- we cannot utterly crush a nuclear power, can we? Well, can we?)

2. FIND A COMPROMISE that ends the war, even if it does not give us the uttermost, perfect victory that we long for.

Trump, I believe, is TRYING to convey this reality to the world. He is TRYING to make EVERYBODY understand that some compromise will be needed to end this war. Compromise isn't pleasant -- many hope, in good faith, that no compromise will ever take place, ever. Early on, that's a sympathetic position. But as the years drone on, and cities and young men are destroyed, at some point it becomes a harder position to justify.

Hoping to end the war or at least find a way to support its continuation without vast self-harm isn't buffonery for Trump to do. That isn't kneeling before Putin, because any eventual compromise is highly unlikely to give Putin all that HE hoped for and dreams of, either.

Realizing that seems simply to be adult, realistic geopolitic.

But politics intrudes. All who don't like Trump, whether inherently or because they have been endlessly, fashionably schooled to do so, LEAP UP and try to pretend Trump is somehow "Putin's friend" because Trump wants to end the war and NOT pour HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS more into watching people die in large numbers.

Trump isn't going to pat Mr. Putin on the back, either. Try to contain fashionable narratives and just ask yourselves: do you really think the war should go on indefinitely, with the civilized war pouring endless treasure into the dying?

I, personally, am of two minds: I support Ukraine and think it was unfairly attacked. And I've continued to support Ukraine for years now.

BUT, if a slight compromise could end this war, I'd consider that possibility and not just start shouting that Trump is a buffoon or a Russian puppet or any other nonsense.

Others may, of course, disagree. But at least CONSIDERING that our preconceptions might be wrong is often a useful first step in discovering reality. And believe me, I include myself in those who need to constantly reconsider preconception.

I might not be right! Believe me, I know that -- I'm not going to blind myself to the possibility that I might be wrong, too. And I think that acknowledging that my own opinions could be mistaken sets an example worth following. I don't see it being followed a lot in the world, however, so far. But a spaniel owner can dream.

zelensky refused to frame hunter Biden, Trump is getting revenge.

Voting with Russia wont diminish the nationa debt.
Voting with Russia tells that you like wars, warcrimes, killings of civilians and genocide.
Voting with Russia encourages others to start wars as USA loves it.
Voting with Russia tells that you are a weak leader that folds under pressure.
It wouldn't cost anything to vote against Russia.
Appeasement will only lead to more wars.

The right way to defeat Russia is to continue as now. Their economy will collapse. It also tell other wannabe warlords that they will be fought in some way or other.

Don't want to give away weapons? Then sell them.

"Voting with Russia." NOT AT ALL what I said. Finding some reasonable compromise or finding a way to find American further funding without serious self-harm is what I talked about.

"...getting revenge" regarding "Hunter Biden." Oh, please. This is the real world, and people are dying in large numbers.

Slight compromise is not "appeasement."

Can ANYBODY respond thoughtfully to what I ACTUALLY wrote, and not just virtually ignore it and then repeat talking points? I might even reconsider -- but it would take something more than a recycled political talking point.

I believe my post in #34 adresses #32 fully. Read both carefully and compare.

That's not the reason I write this one. No, I forgot:

Russia started the war. You should put pressure to stop the war on Russia. Not the victim, Ukraine.

@Katzenschinken said in #31:

1. The 2008 summit discussed a NATO membership for Ukraine but it was offered only as a general target without any time horizon. In fact Ukraine had been rejected an immediate membership. In 2021 when Russia invaded Ukraine they still were not a member and it was not on the cards. Anyone claiming that the invasion was a reaction to an imminent NATO membership is trying to bullshit.

2. You lied when you claimed Ukraine was already a NATO member.

3. Every country has the right to join any alliance that they want. Ukraine is a sovereign country and as such they have any right to apply for a NATO membership.
   Whoever claims that a sovereign country doesn't have this right and is allowed to be invaded by its bigger neighbour as a reaction to such an application either needs to prop up his knowledge about international right or he is simply an asshole.

@Noflaps said in #32

tl/dr [...]

Ok, look, I read some random article somewhere and clearly misunderstood the situation. Thanks for clearing this for me. I don’t want to get involved seriously in your politics. Sorry for the misinformation and I’m outta here.
I want you to know that I’m not supporting Russia, but I’m supporting Ukraine.
You won’t see me in this forum anymore. Sorry

@CCAK0123456789

@Filfthy said in #3:

It seemed planned. Trump will now demand Ukraine elects a new president or the USA can have no further dealings with Ukraine.

Zelenn is INCOMPETENT. Receiving hundreds of billions of military support over 3 years, it is proven Ukraine DID NOT make good use of them. Not an inch of ground was regained towards his claimed border. Zelenn keep asking for weapons only to discard them on battlefield, and come again and again begging for more. Sending more aid to this corrupted liar is a totally waste of taxpayers' money.

Ukraine matters to Europe and Ukraine itself, NOT for America. America cannot fight Russia, China, Iran, Noeth Korea, Palestine and maybe India all on the same time. It need political wisdom to decide which one gets higher priority.

Thanks God, we have the wisest president and DOGE minister ever since President Ronald Reagan.

I, too, support Ukraine and not Russia, @CCAK0123456789 , and (to be clear) I was not directing my post #32 to you in particular, or really, to anybody else in particular. That's why I didn't mention anybody in particular.

I was merely trying to provide an alternate and seldom-heard viewpoint for consideration. With malice toward none, of course.

I don't see why you would apologize -- on a forum like this most of us merely express our own opinions and consider those of others. Sometimes we make good points, sometimes we make mistakes. But earnest, polite effort to discuss the issues generally seems like a good thing, does it not?

You, in particular, seem like an intelligent person, judging by your writing, and the forum seems to benefit from the contribution of intelligent, thoughtful persons. So, I personally, will be sorry if you cease to post. Perhaps someday we will enjoy a chess game together. It's rumored that people play chess here, too. So far, I've only been able to play a couple of tens of thousands of games -- but there's still time for more, I hope.

@Noflaps said in #39:

I, too, support Ukraine and not Russia, @CCAK0123456789 , and was not directing my post to you in particular, or really, to anybody else in particular. That's why I didn't mention anybody in particular.

I was merely trying to provide an alternate and seldom-heard viewpoint for consideration. With malice toward none, of course.

I don't see why you would apologize -- on a forum like this most of us merely express our own opinions and consider those of others. That seems like a good thing, does it not?

You, in particular, seem like an intelligent person, judging by your writing, and the forum seems to benefit from the contribution of intelligent, thoughtful person. So, I personally, will be sorry if you cease to post. Perhaps someday we will enjoy a chess game together. It's rumored that people play chess here, too. So far, I've only been able to play a couple of tens of thousands of games -- but there's still time for more, I hope.

I was actually thanking you and @Katzenschinken for explaining me the truth and apologizing for giving bad info. But I feel happy that you feel like that. :D