Off-topic section is becoming a liability.

Background: https://lichess.org/forum/lichess-feedback/complaint-disappointment-with-moderators-in-forums#1

To begin with, some of you may be surprised to see me writing this. The off-topic section is where I spend a great deal of time.
However, I think that, due to increasingly poor moderation, the risk it poses to lichess is greater than the benefit it provides at this time.

To be fair, there are some benefits. At it's best, it is a place that chess lovers can discuss a wide range of topics and even develop friendships. From a more practical perspective, it helps the site function by serving as a quarantine for posts that aren't related to chess, reducing the amount of spam in the other threads. It could be an incredibly useful tool, if it were well moderated.

However, that is not the case now. I assume this is a result of either a flawed report system or incompetent staff. To illustrate this, I'd like to draw attention to the latest drama development-- a user going around flaming select other users. Normal internet stuff, right? Well, yes and no. The unusual part is that this user is a sock puppet who has been subject of reports and complaints from myself and others for over a month now (on a normal site, the user would get the hook as soon as this was confirmed) . I can personally attest that the user has accused me of child abuse on a number of occasions. A prior account with identical tactics and language did the same to me not too long ago (see link posted above), accusing me of murder-- the two are obviously owned by the same individual. There are a number of other accounts with identical writing styles and identical devolutions into trolls, specifically targeting identical people, going back years. This should be the easiest decision for a moderator-- ban the account. The mods have decided to ignore it.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that we should get rid of the off-topic section because I don't like getting flamed*. If the mods have truly decided to not do their jobs, I would be happy to fully speak my mind and introduce some new vocabulary to this place.

My concern is that, if lichess mods have become so lazy and/or inept that it takes them over a month to deal with a blatant sockpuppet troll that has been reported multiple times, then they won't do their jobs. And when you have an unmoderated open forum in the internet, bad things happen. It is particularly worrisome in an environment that is increasingly inhabited by kids, and where there is no background checks, and no due diligence.

When you are providing a platform for adults to interact with kids unchecked and in unhealthy ways, does the lighter load on people who are trained to handle that load justify endangering kids? No.

I think lichess needs to, at least temporarily, shut down the subforum. Teams and blogs can provide temporary alternatives, with less dangers. If the mods are overworked, reinstate that subforum at such point as it can be handled. If the mods are just incompetent, it could be a good time to train them.

*Although, to be clear, you guys have officially lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. I've been venting my annoyance by pointing out the absurdity of the situation in the forums, in the hopes that it might draw a mod's attention. No dice.

I've always thought that maybe off-topic could be divided into further subforums (although this might defeat the purpose of this being a chess site and not necessarily a social media one).

Like maybe, all the politics people could have one subforum, and everybody else can then be able to easily steer clear of that if they don't want to go down six rabbit holes. Or would that bring too much attention to politics? I'm not sure.

Off topic is an absolute cesspit and also a safeguarding nightmare. On a recent What Are Your Favourite Books post you had Viktor Frankl mentioned alongside Sonic the Hedgehog!

You have adults posting deliberately provocative topics and smearing anyone who disagrees as nazis and fascists every day! I had an idiot drop into my private messages accusing me of all sorts and could not back up a single example with facts.

I have rarely had to block anyone on Lichess until i started using the OT forum. It is over run by trolls and i dont bother going there much anymore.

Edit: im also not sure why you continue to engage with the troll @clousems . I remember you pushing back on a forum post i made about ignoring the trolls a while back.

@greenteakitten said in #2:

I've always thought that maybe off-topic could be divided into further subforums (although this might defeat the purpose of this being a chess site and not necessarily a social media one).

Like maybe, all the politics people could have one subforum, and everybody else can then be able to easily steer clear of that if they don't want to go down six rabbit holes. Or would that bring too much attention to politics? I'm not sure.

That would be a good idea if the problem was just a general decline in forum quality and focus. However, that would make more work for the mods, and would as of now exacerbate the problem, I think.

@clousems said in #1:

Background: lichess.org/forum/lichess-feedback/complaint-disappointment-with-moderators-in-forums#1

---

To begin with, some of you may be surprised to see me writing this. The off-topic section is where I spend a great deal of time.
However, I think that, due to increasingly poor moderation, the risk it poses to lichess is greater than the benefit it provides at this time.

To be fair, there are some benefits. At it's best, it is a place that chess lovers can discuss a wide range of topics and even develop friendships. From a more practical perspective, it helps the site function by serving as a quarantine for posts that aren't related to chess, reducing the amount of spam in the other threads. It could be an incredibly useful tool, if it were well moderated.

However, that is not the case now. I assume this is a result of either a flawed report system or incompetent staff. To illustrate this, I'd like to draw attention to the latest drama development-- a user going around flaming select other users. Normal internet stuff, right? Well, yes and no. The unusual part is that this user is a sock puppet who has been subject of reports and complaints from myself and others for over a month now (on a normal site, the user would get the hook as soon as this was confirmed) . I can personally attest that the user has accused me of child abuse on a number of occasions. A prior account with identical tactics and language did the same to me not too long ago (see link posted above), accusing me of murder-- the two are obviously owned by the same individual. There are a number of other accounts with identical writing styles and identical devolutions into trolls, specifically targeting identical people, going back years. This should be the easiest decision for a moderator-- ban the account. The mods have decided to ignore it.

Now, to be clear, I'm not saying that we should get rid of the off-topic section because I don't like getting flamed*. If the mods have truly decided to not do their jobs, I would be happy to fully speak my mind and introduce some new vocabulary to this place.

My concern is that, if lichess mods have become so lazy and/or inept that it takes them over a month to deal with a blatant sockpuppet troll that has been reported multiple times, then they won't do their jobs. And when you have an unmoderated open forum in the internet, bad things happen. It is particularly worrisome in an environment that is increasingly inhabited by kids, and where there is no background checks, and no due diligence.

When you are providing a platform for adults to interact with kids unchecked and in unhealthy ways, does the lighter load on people who are trained to handle that load justify endangering kids? No.

I think lichess needs to, at least temporarily, shut down the subforum. Teams and blogs can provide temporary alternatives, with less dangers. If the mods are overworked, reinstate that subforum at such point as it can be handled. If the mods are just incompetent, it could be a good time to train them.

*Although, to be clear, you guys have officially lost all credibility as far as I'm concerned. I've been venting my annoyance by pointing out the absurdity of the situation in the forums, in the hopes that it might draw a mod's attention. No dice.

I didn't experience anything similar, primary because I mainly play, so my apologies if I write here without the needed experience of the issue.

What I would like to share is that maybe is not laziness the issues of moderation, but the problem is that the infrastructure and moderation is still paid with donations and probably donation's gross numbers (and so moderators number) aren't changed as much as user base increased

@betternever said in #3:

Off topic is an absolute cesspit and also a safeguarding nightmare. On a recent What Are Your Favourite Books post you had Viktor Frankl mentioned alongside Sonic the Hedgehog!

You have adults posting deliberately provocative topics and smearing anyone who disagrees as nazis and fascists every day! I had an idiot drop into my private messages accusing me of all sorts and could not back up a single example with facts.

I have rarely had to block anyone on Lichess until i started using the OT forum. It is over run by trolls and i dont bother going there much anymore.

Edit: im also not sure why you continue to engage with the troll @clousems . I remember you pushing back on a forum post i made about ignoring the trolls a while back.

It seems to me that moderation would solve a lot of that (maybe not the Sonic stuff-- that's going to remain so long as kids use the site). Would you agree, or is there another potential fix?

(Regarding your edit, I tend to engage because of past interactions with the user in question. When you go through long periods of constantly being accused of horrible things, and when the traditional avenues of dealing with that problem fail, you develop a need to defend yourself from accusations of criminal and sadistic behavior. IIRC, my reaction towards your post was more a reaction to the way that it was worded than content)

@Ender88 said in #5:

I didn't experience anything similar, primary because I mainly play, so my apologies if I write here without the needed experience of the issue.

What I would like to share is that maybe is not laziness the issues of moderation, but the problem is that the infrastructure and moderation is still paid with donations and probably gross numbers aren't changed as much as user base increased

That's likely a possibility, but I think that the shutdown of the off topic section would still be beneficial for the reasons mentioned earlier

@clousems said in #7:

That's likely a possibility, but I think that the shutdown of the off topic section would still be beneficial for the reasons mentioned earlier

Yes that may be an option, as said I don't know the issue, so don't have an opinion nor experience about it.
What I tried to make was just break a spear for moderators.

(A bit OT maybe but I think it well deserved, basing my judgement on how moderation worked in cheating detection for example)

I think the moderation quality differs on this site depending on context. Great cheat detection work (even if that is largely automated), average chat room moderation (occasionally lax or overzealous, but still relatively effective), terrible in other communication methods.

Lichess' priorities are correct in that regard, but it doesn't make sense to keep the off topic section if they put no effort into maintaining it