Trans players in chess

@Brian-E said in #90:

The words you quote are actually mine because in the posting you are responding to, and several others posted at that time, the quoting went awry. So I'll respond to your response briefly.

Trans people have done pretty much the ultimate self-acceptance by acknowledging who they are. They have done that in the face of overwhelming rejection and hostility, even if they are in the most liberal and progressive societies on Earth. If you are looking for someone who really knows what self-awareness and self-acceptance is, look no further than a transgender person.

Trans people can't accept their biology. That's why they are trans.

They only accept that they don't identify with their biology. But they can't accept their biology. You cannot tell me that is not the case, that is literally what being trans is. Not accepting the biology you have because you "feel" another way.

Listen, I'll make one thing abundantly clear: I don't care about sexual preferences and I personally, don't care if I'm playing against a trans person. To me, it's all the same, its just a board game that I play for fun and I don't think anyone should be excluded from playing just because they are attracted to their own gender or have sexual dysphoria.

But the reality is, biological reality, is a reality, and men and women biologies, both physical and mental, are very different and by accepting that trans players should be accepted as women to play in the women's category, give's them a huge advantage.

And before you argue that there is no difference in male and female brain workings, actually there is and science has shown this consistently, just look up the IQ bell curve for males and females.

Trans players are as far as I know, allowed to compete in open tournaments, so they are not being excluded, they are allowed to play, and so there is really no issue here, other than trans players feelings being hurt because they aren't being recognised as their personal "identity".

If we should allow people to be included by their identity, then I identity as a GM and should be allowed to play in GM tournaments.

Would you be ok with that? Because that's what the argument is about, "Should people be able to identify as something and allowed to play under that identity even though the reality is that they don't actually qualify as that thing".

BTW, don't hate trans people, I want to make that abundantly clear, I have no enemies and I have no ideology or religious ties that would make me discriminate against anyone, I just accept reality and the reality is, trans women... are not biological women, they are biologically male and shouldn't be classified as females for purposes of sports in any shape or form.

Once again, we have open tournaments, literally for everyone, why can't you just accept that reality that trans people aren't excluded from chess, they just don't qualify as women for womens tournaments.

Otherwise if we're going to start letting people into tournaments based on self-identity and not on qualification, then literally anyone can enter a woman's tournament by saying "I identify as female (but I am masculine presenting if they don't bother trying to 'pass' ") and there literally won't be a need for a womens tournament anymore, it would just be an open tournament and once again, biological females are going to be marginalized and discriminated against, and I'm sure a kind and caring soul such as yourself, would never want to discriminate and marginalize women, right?

Because you respect women and you respect that they should have their own spaces to compete, right?

And if you seriously believe that trans-women accept who they are... then they should accept that they are not biological women and cannot compete with biological women.

Hi everyone,

In light of all the mainly negative comment towards transwomen/women I will post something positive!!

Yosha Iglesias is amazing, speaking out about transwomen/women's rights in the chess world and she is fully supported by her French (female) Teams mates.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dSSXjBX48k&ab_channel=USChess

Also in reference to Women's Tournaments. Norway Chess is on at the moment and it's the first time in history that there has been an Open Tournament and a Women's Tournament with an equal prize fund. Which is brilliant and very progressive. I'm sure that Norway Chess would also welcome transwomen in their Women's tournament in the future too. Depending on their FIDE Rating and of cause if FIDE can ever move into the 21st Century, overcoming their transphobic views and policies!!

@Buny77 said in #92:

Hi everyone,

In light of all the mainly negative comment towards transwomen/women I will post something positive!!

Oh, wonderful. We can count on an interview by Jen Shahade to bring some positivity to this mostly miserable topic. And I've been wanting to hear something more about Yosha Iglesias for some time now. I've got to go to work shortly, and I will look forward to listening to this full interview when I get back tonight.

Thank you!

@ElectronBug said in #63:

Funny how it's the people who love to use buzzwords like "inclusive" and "welcoming" who are always the least exemplary of those qualities.

You must've confused me with someone, I haven't used those words.

i think the best way to decide is have a large discusion involveing female over the board players about what it is best for the game, and ultimatly let them decide. however i will say from what i have seen, that vast vast majority of people i have talked to have supported it, i my self was asked to play in the english womens championship for exsample

@Buny77 said in #92:

Also in reference to Women's Tournaments. Norway Chess is on at the moment and it's the first time in history that there has been an Open Tournament and a Women's Tournament with an equal prize fund. Which is brilliant and very progressive. I'm sure that Norway Chess would also welcome transwomen in their Women's tournament in the future too. Depending on their FIDE Rating and of cause if FIDE can ever move into the 21st Century, overcoming their transphobic views and policies!!

Sincere question.

Assume trans players are allowed to play in womens tournaments.

Since the condition of being trans is based completely on feelings, something that no one but the person feeling those feelings, knows, how do you know who is genuinely a transwoman and someone that is just pretending to be a transwoman to enter womens tournaments?

What prerequisites should there be, if any, to be considered an eligible transwomen to enter womens tournaments?

Should they be openly trans for a certain amount of time? Do they have to identify as trans from a certain age, or can they realise they are trans at any age?

What about say, non binary players, who on some days, feel like they are male, and on other days, feel they are female?
Should they be allowed to compete in womens tournaments if they're not biologically female?

If so, how do you know who is genuinely trans/nonbinary, and whose faking it to get into womens spaces?

Surely there needs to be some sort of safe guards to prevent bad actors from entering, would you not agree, or do you think that absolutely anyone who claims to be trans/nonbinary at any point in their lives should be allowed and that we should just accept everyone who makes this claim?

@felixnothus said in #96:

Sincere question.

Assume trans players are allowed to play in womens tournaments.

Since the condition of being trans is based completely on feelings, something that no one but the person feeling those feelings, knows, how do you know who is genuinely a transwoman and someone that is just pretending to be a transwoman to enter womens tournaments?

What prerequisites should there be, if any, to be considered an eligible transwomen to enter womens tournaments?

Should they be openly trans for a certain amount of time? Do they have to identify as trans from a certain age, or can they realise they are trans at any age?

What about say, non binary players, who on some days, feel like they are male, and on other days, feel they are female?
Should they be allowed to compete in womens tournaments if they're not biologically female?

If so, how do you know who is genuinely trans/nonbinary, and whose faking it to get into womens spaces?

Surely there needs to be some sort of safe guards to prevent bad actors from entering, would you not agree, or do you think that absolutely anyone who claims to be trans/nonbinary at any point in their lives should be allowed and that we should just accept everyone who makes this claim?

i think that is a very fair question, i would say 1.) you need to be transitioning outside the chess world as well as inside of it, so there is no BS like "i identify as a women when there is a womens prize"

2.)in theory a good benchmark would be identification, i.e i have female on my passport and driving licience so thats what fide will use, although in some places it is hard/impossible to get ID

3.) as a possible alternative to ID you could use a clinical gender dysphoria assesment, which i also have, and most trans people will have

@basmati94 said in #87:

The problem with how you're coming across is you're approaching this from a "well I've not seen it, therefore it's not true" perspective.

As I stated, the solution if someone bothers you is already there: you block them.
Are there cases where it's possible to trace the identity of the person involved? Probably, so what.
Elevating simple messages to "abuse" is merely a form of vanity and attention-seeking by posing as victims.
If there is a criminal act, it is a matter for the law; if there is conduct against the platform's guidelines, it is a matter for the moderators. Everything that falls in between is called life, better getting used to it.

Earlier, I heard things like: "they watch my games and message my friends asking for an audience" being listed as major "problems."
Those are not problems; that's snobbery.

While annoyance is a subjective matter, words do have objective meaning.
Simply saying that something "is a problem for me" does not make it so; it must objectively have the characteristics of a problem.

@felixnothus said in #96:

Since the condition of being trans is based completely on feelings, something that no one but the person feeling those feelings, knows, how do you know who is genuinely a transwoman and someone that is just pretending to be a transwoman to enter womens tournaments?

That is a potential problem, but it is much more harmful to exclude trans women entirely. Then we can cross that bridge when we get to it. As far as I know, that has never been a real problem, but I could be mistaken. @Anareza_Firiojzja also makes some good suggestions (although #3 might exclude some genuinely trans people).

@Anareza_Firiojzja said in #97:

i think that is a very fair question, i would say 1.) you need to be transitioning outside the chess world as well as inside of it, so there is no BS like "i identify as a women when there is a womens prize"

2.)in theory a good benchmark would be identification, i.e i have female on my passport and driving licience so thats what fide will use, although in some places it is hard/impossible to get ID

3.) as a possible alternative to ID you could use a clinical gender dysphoria assesment, which i also have, and most trans people will have

1. Does this apply to the non-binaries? Non binary people don't necessarily normally transition do they? And what about trans people who don't necessarily want to have gender-confirming surgery or cannot afford or get access to cross hormone treatments?
   Correct me if I'm wrong, but being trans and transitioning are not mutually inclusive, you CAN be trans identifying but not want to actually go into any surgery or treatments, does this not actually discriminate against those trans people, or should it ONLY be "Full Trans" should be considered?

2. Sure, but as you said, ID in many places is hard/impossible to get... and fake ID's are a thing too. And I know in places like for example Canada, all you have to do is tell your doctor you identify as trans and they will write you a certificate to get your gender changed legitamitely, and this can be done without any tests or assessments, they will just literally take you at your word. How do you know the id's won't just be obtained through such systems?

3.People can be coached to answer gender dysphoria assessments so that they get the results they want, can they not?

Sure it's a hassle but you don't think cheaters would go to such lengths if prize money was on the line?

I mean I just checked right now on the internet and I found guides on how to answer gender dysphoria assessments almost instantly, so really its not much of a hassle at all if all you have to do is remember the answers you have to give and remembering things is something good chess players are masters at.

So from a security point of view, the only way you could be sure someone really is a good faith transwoman, is if they've gone through gender confirming surgery and can physically prove it, otherwise you really don't know since theres just way too many loop holes and exploits in such systems, and if you're going to only allow post ops then you would be discriminating against trans who cannot afford or do not want surgery, and non-binaries cannot be recognised either, since there's no way to be 100% sure.