Trans players in chess

@mandariinikyy said in #58:
> Don't let the door hit you on your way out
Funny how it's the people who love to use buzzwords like "inclusive" and "welcoming" who are always the least exemplary of those qualities.

@TjoffenPD said in #57:
> Sure, I welcome your effort to raise awareness to people like me.
>
> To highlight how huge the problem is could you please answer a few questions:
>
> 1. Do the majority of these people harass you after they play a game of online chess against you / lose against you or more often these are just random encounters in chat/forums/private message?

I'm assuming that these are questions the blog and its 82 pages of discussion couldn't answer? Well, it's late so I will be brief.
No, they don't tend to after a game, hardly ever. Most of it is in forums or dms, or arena chat.

> 2. Do you know the geography of such people (i.e. their cultural background - if they come from cultures where women's rights are historically underdeveloped)?

They come from all cultural backgrounds in my experience, Europe, US, Asia, Africa, Middle East, you can't just generalise here.

> 3. Can you tell how often (percentage-wise) you get such interactions (e.g. every 5th game, every 10th game)? These stats would be great to measure the extent of the issue.

No, because I play a lot of games and don't often get bothered in game chat, more outside of games. I would say you might go some weeks with nothing, then, a cluster of incidents might occur. Some people make multiple accounts to contact women, stalk and harass us over months or longer.

@OldTimes said in #60:
> Allow me to elaborate.
> Sexism is neither funny nor horrible, it simply is a human variable like many others.
> Virtuous? Certainly not.
> But everything must be put into the right perspective of gravity because too often the topic becomes the springboard for some girl's 5 minutes of fame playing the victim card.

What an out-of-touch and rosy view you have of things. So obviously you are trolling here, but I will humour you for a minute. "Playing the victim card" right ok. Actually this doesn't deserve a serious reply because it's just BS.

> If you think that "awareness" policies will make groups of pubescent boys stop laughing when a beautiful girl walks by, you must understand that you are not challenging the culture but its opposite, which is nature.

> As long as it remains within the limits of good taste and does not degenerate into any forms of crime, however mild or severe, I advise every woman to build up her antibodies and stop complaining on behalf of the entire female gender (unless there will be planetary votes).

Yes, we should just stop complaining and just take the snide sexist remarks, obscene private messages, obsessive stalking over many months and all of this in our stride and just shut up about it, sure.

> As for online harassment, it's a ridiculous concept, sorry.

If you are this stupid, I really can't explain it to you, I'm sorry. Hopefully, you aren't.

> Here you are a nickname, nothing more, nothing less.
> There is no picture of you and not even your age.

A lot of guys don't even need a picture, and they don't care about your age, you have to believe me on that one.

>
> If you are bothered by someone writing to you, you block them. Simple.

If only it was that simple. Blocking someone doesn't stop you from having to play against them when you get paired in open arenas, or putting up with their abuse in public chat, or them messaging your friends to try to get in touch with you, or spamming you with anonymous challenges, spectating all your games, joining your teams or creating a dozen new accounts to come at you again over many months, I don't think you quite grasp the lengths someone will go to when they are truly obsessed, it can be startling.

Maybe you even mean well with this comment, but you just don't have a clue.

It seems this is an issue of freedom of assembly more than anything else. It actually doesn't matter whether or not it is true that women have some sort of inherent disadvantage (a claim which I am particularly skeptical of) or that women are excluded from OTB chess. If women want to organize chess tournaments just for women, they absolutely have a right to do so. And it should be up to them whether or not they want to include men who identify as women in their tournaments. Lichess should stay out of this. I used to donate to Lichess because of its focus on providing an elegant platform to play chess without any BS; not anymore.

@QueenRosieMary said in #65:
> What an out-of-touch and rosy view you have of things. So obviously you are trolling here, but I will humour you for a minute. "Playing the victim card" right ok. Actually this doesn't deserve a serious reply because it's just BS.

Resorting to insults rather than engaging in a constructive conversation is unproductive. Disparaging someone’s viewpoint without providing a reasoned argument diminishes the credibility of your response.

> Yes, we should just stop complaining and just take the snide sexist remarks, obscene private messages, obsessive stalking over many months and all of this in our stride and just shut up about it, sure.

As I said, there must be a differentiation between unpleasant behavior and crimes; the latter must be punished. Obscene messages and stalking fall under the jurisdiction of the appropriate authorities (or moderators here on Lichess), and there are already solutions for them.

> If you are this stupid, I really can't explain it to you, I'm sorry. Hopefully, you aren't.

Again, resorting to personal attacks and name-calling undermines any points you might try to express. It is crucial to maintain a respectful discourse, even when disagreeing.

> A lot of guys don't even need a picture, and they don't care about your age, you have to believe me on that one.

I'm sorry, I can't believe you.
Sexual harassment cannot be directed at a mere nickname because letters do not have a gender.
If your level of identification with the alphabetical characters that make up a fantasy name is such that you take it personally, I would suggest fortifying your spirit.

> If only it was that simple.

Well, it is actually.

>Blocking someone doesn't stop you from having to play against them when you get paired in open arenas, or putting up with their abuse in public chat, or them messaging your friends to try to get in touch with you, or spamming you with anonymous challenges, spectating all your games, joining your teams or creating a dozen new accounts to come at you again over many months, I don't think you quite grasp the lengths someone will go to when they are truly obsessed, it can be startling.
Maybe you even mean well with this comment, but you just don't have a clue.

Playing a blitz game against someone during a friendly tournament on a chess site is not harassment; again I would advise to strengthen yourself instead of complaining.
Regarding "abuse in public chat," I would remind you that if you report the person, they will be punished and banned.
If someone is blocked, they cannot challenge you so I don't know what you're talking about.
Following your games, it is not abuse (if it bothers you, enable Zen mode).
Joining your teams is not abuse.
Creating endless new accounts is against Lichess regulations, and those who do so are banned by IP.
I think it is you who does not understand that these issues you are listing are mild compared to real-world problems.

In conclusion, for 95% of the things you complain about, there is already an effective solution.
The remaining issues have no solution because they are not problems.

Neither of you (OldTimes & QueenRosieMary) are really disagreeing with each other.

QueenRosieMary has rather eloquently demonstrated that there is a real problem regarding the culture of chess and how women are perceived and targeted.
OldTimes has beautifully demonstrated that there are measures put into place to combat any Lichess specific targeted abuse. Though I would say you're rather naive if you think someone can't be sexist or abusive to someone just because they don't have an avatar/age/gender... a lot of people use a similar online handle on games/news sites as they will on social media. I have been able to find friends on games/news sites based on their social media handles and if I can do that then I dread to think what someone of poor mind would do if they were eager to find a victim to harass.

You're both right. Lichess have systems in place to prevent/weed out abuse (whether they are effective or not is another matter... moderators are only humans with flaws after all). At the same time, there is still a problem in chess regarding how females are treated.

We just have to hope that society will continue to develop to a point where all aspects of abuse are both called out and vilified, and this fairer chess society encourages females to play in open tournaments to the point where eventually women's only tournaments aren't needed and we can forget the whole gender discussion!

@OldTimes said in #60:
> Sexism is neither funny nor horrible, it simply is a human variable like many others.
if you think not horrible is being called by multiple boys who are masterbating on camera, i don't know what to say.

@ALucasM said in #69:
> if you think not horrible is being called by multiple boys who are masterbating on camera, i don't know what to say.

Your comment appears disconnected from the topic at hand. You seem to be confusing obscene acts, which are legally prosecutable, with sexism, which is a form of prejudice. Not to mention that on Lichess, you cannot video call anyone.

@OldTimes said in #70:
> Your comment appears disconnected from the topic at hand. You seem to be confusing obscene acts, which are legally prosecutable, with sexism, which is a form of prejudice. Not to mention that on Lichess, you cannot video call anyone.
well yes, this is separate from chess, but these kind of people do it bc they think its funny to treat females that way, which is sexism, but i see how my comment very much looks like off topic.

Today I learned that not even chess websites are free of this divisive and tedious discourse.