I am probably not skilled enough for the Sicilian but I am opposed to E4 E5 • page 4/5 • General Chess Discussion • lichess.org

"... For players with very limited experience, ... the Sicilian Defence ... normally leaves you with little room to manoeuvre and is best left until your positional skills develop. ... I'm still not excited about my students playing the Sicilian Defence at [the stage where they have a moderate level of experience and some opening competence], because it almost always means playing with less space and development, and in some cases with exotic and not particularly instructive pawn-structures. ... if you're taking the Sicilian up at [say, 1700 Elo and above], you should put in a lot of serious study time, as well as commit to playing it for a few years. ..." - IM John Watson (2010)

kindaspongey edited

#32

"... I am not a big fan of weaker players memorizing lots of opening lines they will never play. However, it is quite a different issue to spend a small amount of time learning how to play your openings a little better each time they occur. A long journey begins with a single step. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2005) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627023809/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman50.pdf
"... Review each of your games, identifying opening (and other) mistakes with the goal of not repeatedly making the same mistake. ... It is especially critical not to continually fall into opening traps – or even lines that result in difficult positions ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2007)
https://web.archive.org/web/20140627062646/https://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman81.pdf

"... I am not a big fan of weaker players memorizing lots of opening lines they will never play. However, it is quite a different issue to spend a small amount of time learning how to play your openings a little better each time they occur. A long journey begins with a single step. ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2005) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627023809/http://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman50.pdf "... Review each of your games, identifying opening (and other) mistakes with the goal of not repeatedly making the same mistake. ... It is especially critical not to continually fall into opening traps – or even lines that result in difficult positions ..." - NM Dan Heisman (2007) https://web.archive.org/web/20140627062646/https://www.chesscafe.com/text/heisman81.pdf

NM ThunderClap

#33

No one can force you to play 1... e5 vs 1 e4 @ThunderClap said in #20:

J Breyer said White's game is in the last throes after 1 e4 .... He viewed the e4 pawn as a weakness & helped support the ideas of the hypermodern school of thought that helped develop such ideas that led to systems such as Alekhine's Defense &The Nimzo-Indian . The Sicilian is a fine opening but studying of complete games to study the middlegame and endings is more important than you might guess

No one can force you to play 1... e5 vs 1 e4 @ThunderClap said in #20: > J Breyer said White's game is in the last throes after 1 e4 .... He viewed the e4 pawn as a weakness & helped support the ideas of the hypermodern school of thought that helped develop such ideas that led to systems such as Alekhine's Defense &The Nimzo-Indian . The Sicilian is a fine opening but studying of complete games to study the middlegame and endings is more important than you might guess

fzimmermanchess edited

#34

@YAYERZ said in #28:

Its not clear to me where the pieces should go a lot of the times. I would prefer if I could get the dragon variation most games but if I can't I find the position to become incredibly cramped. Still, I prefer to play the Sicilian because it is somewhat mentally stimulating to try and figure it out between myself and an engine. I just wonder if there are some concepts about chess as a whole that I'm missing that prevent me from playing the Sicilian optimally and perhaps trying different openings will give me that experience. I played against the Sicilian yesterday and I had the same issue of not really knowing the attacking ideas. Strange

The Sicilian is a good opening. If you are a low-level player sure you will take your lumps at first, but it is not as bad for beginners as some, like Watson, who knows chess and is a good writer, but his opening advice for beginners is the realm of psychology of learning where he is nothing special, and his proclamations are unsubstantiated and aren't worth much. don't hold water. Also, the notion that playing the Sicilian demands that you learn lots of theory and is therefore bad for beginners is a load of crap, because if your opponents are of similar ability and experience, then they will be in the same boat as you. Go for the Sicilian Dragon if you like it. Maybe you will take a few lumps at first, but if playing openings like the Sicilian is the goal, then you will be better of in the long run.

@YAYERZ said in #28: > Its not clear to me where the pieces should go a lot of the times. I would prefer if I could get the dragon variation most games but if I can't I find the position to become incredibly cramped. Still, I prefer to play the Sicilian because it is somewhat mentally stimulating to try and figure it out between myself and an engine. I just wonder if there are some concepts about chess as a whole that I'm missing that prevent me from playing the Sicilian optimally and perhaps trying different openings will give me that experience. I played against the Sicilian yesterday and I had the same issue of not really knowing the attacking ideas. Strange The Sicilian is a good opening. If you are a low-level player sure you will take your lumps at first, but it is not as bad for beginners as some, like Watson, who knows chess and is a good writer, but his opening advice for beginners is the realm of psychology of learning where he is nothing special, and his proclamations are unsubstantiated and aren't worth much. don't hold water. Also, the notion that playing the Sicilian demands that you learn lots of theory and is therefore bad for beginners is a load of crap, because if your opponents are of similar ability and experience, then they will be in the same boat as you. Go for the Sicilian Dragon if you like it. Maybe you will take a few lumps at first, but if playing openings like the Sicilian is the goal, then you will be better of in the long run.

kindaspongey edited

#35

@ThunderClap said in #20:

J Breyer said White's game is in the last throes after 1 e4 .... He viewed the e4 pawn as a weakness & helped support the ideas of the hypermodern school of thought that helped develop such ideas that led to systems such as Alekhine's Defense &The Nimzo-Indian . ...
Richard Réti reported the Breyer comment in a manuscript that he was working on before dying in 1929. Since then, I believe that there have been a few enthusiastic players of 1 e4. Richard Réti also wrote:
"... A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defense and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game. ..."
https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Chessboard-21st-Century-Richard/dp/1936490218

@ThunderClap said in #20: > J Breyer said White's game is in the last throes after 1 e4 .... He viewed the e4 pawn as a weakness & helped support the ideas of the hypermodern school of thought that helped develop such ideas that led to systems such as Alekhine's Defense &The Nimzo-Indian . ... Richard Réti reported the Breyer comment in a manuscript that he was working on before dying in 1929. Since then, I believe that there have been a few enthusiastic players of 1 e4. Richard Réti also wrote: "... A beginner should avoid the Queen's Gambit and the French Defense and play open games instead! While he may not win as many games at first, he will in the long run be amply compensated by acquiring a thorough knowledge of the game. ..." https://www.amazon.com/Masters-Chessboard-21st-Century-Richard/dp/1936490218

kindaspongey edited

#36

"... It is illogical for one who has not earned his master title to ape the complicated opening variations played by, say, a world champion. After all, while the opening is indeed important in chess, it is still only one part of the game; victory can be found as well in the middlegame or endgame. Your only task in the opening is to reach a playable middlegame. ... How should we lay the foundations of our opening repertoire? It is hard to come up with a single answer to satisfy every player. Individuals will have different objectives in the opening, as well as different playing strengths. Nevertheless, to all players I can recommend the following: simplicity and economy. These are the characteristics of the opening systems of many great masters. They do not strain unduly for advantages in the opening; they would just as soon move on to the next phase of the game, hoping their skill will overcome the opponent in the middlegame or endgame. ... the most complicated variations demand huge amounts of time for home analysis, time available only to professional chess players. ... I will discuss here only openings and defenses that in my opinion offer simplicity and economy. ... The Dragon and Najdorf Variations ... have been analyzed to twenty moves and more; if a player without adequate preparation walks into an analyzed sequence he may lose even to a weaker opponent. Under no circumstances should you handle these variations in serious games unless you are a professional chess player with unlimited time for study. ..." - GM Lajos Portisch (1974)

kindaspongey edited

#37

@fzimmermanchess said in #34:

... the notion that playing the Sicilian demands that you learn lots of theory and is therefore bad for beginners is a load of crap, because if your opponents are of similar ability and experience, then they will be in the same boat as you. ...
As I understand it, there are position evaluations such as

=
because there are some positions that are easier for one side to play than the other. Such a position is NOT considered to be a situation where one side has a decisive advantage. There is a separate sort of symbol (+-) for that. It seems to me that one can understanably try to avoid positions where the opponent will have easier decisions.

@fzimmermanchess said in #34: > ... the notion that playing the Sicilian demands that you learn lots of theory and is therefore bad for beginners is a load of crap, because if your opponents are of similar ability and experience, then they will be in the same boat as you. ... As I understand it, there are position evaluations such as + = because there are some positions that are easier for one side to play than the other. Such a position is NOT considered to be a situation where one side has a decisive advantage. There is a separate sort of symbol (+-) for that. It seems to me that one can understanably try to avoid positions where the opponent will have easier decisions.

NM ThunderClap edited

#38

@kindaspongey I've read Masters Of The Chessboard & most Chess books you have mentioned in many of your posts . Does it matter to me that Reti himself played 1e4 so many times ? No not here as this one human wants to play Chess & not play 1...5 at least no one can force him/her to do so . this player wants to try other moves & was asking for advice which many gave including you & I . There are many platers including the best that played moves other than 1...e5 at times even when a beginner to learn a bit more at times . Yes we all know the Russian school of Chess but India should chime in with their newer ideas soon as well & maybe even Americans can make new suggestions to BROADEN our perspectives . I myself believe one should try to play many varied positions & as far as I can see # even the ones like myself who learned the Classical or Russian ways can try to BROADEN the views on Training . 1... e5 is great but as players grow they should know almost all these Openings a bit as well . Look at the higher IM's GMs when they look at games . They study the Opening mid & endgames but also varied Openings weapons in Complete Games . I've seen all the comments on lessening the load or Burden but I look at it as LIMITING the endless scope of happiness that comes from Playing Studying & learning everything a human can TRY to learn . To me it's not only enjoyable it can bring meaning to life ! However humans get a little older & we eventually pass away to be remembered I guess by the AIs of the future ?!!

CM Sarg0n

#39

Do you know the Sicilian, the „cheap trick“?

Once again we have to summon old master Michael Stean. It's 47 years old! Could be written yesterday.

"Minority attacks derive from the Pawn structure, Pawn structures derive from the opening. Go back to the eras of Capablanca and Alekhine and you will see Queen's Gambits, hoards of them, with hoards of minority attacks descending from them. Nowadays [1978; still relevant] the Sicilian Defense is all the rage. Sicilians here, Sicilians there, Sicilians absolutely everywhere. Why this saturation with Sicilians? Does the Mafia's influence really extend this far? The answer lies in the minority attack. The whole idea of the Sicilian is for Black to trade his c Pawn for the d Pawn. White almost invariably obliges: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (or d6 or e6 or g6) 3.d4 cxd4, when Black immediately arrives at a minority attack Pawn structure. Half-open c file, extra central pawn, 2-3 minority on the Queenside; these are all the necessary ingredients. Sounds infallible, so where's the snag? Why doesn't Black win every game? The problem is of course that White has a lead in development in the early stages, which may prove difficult to survive. Black's prospects lie later in the game when the winds of White's initiative have blown themselves out."
The structural weaknesses White accepts because he is trying to avoid Black's plan to launch a minority attack to get a winning endgame and must attack. They are not the cause of Black having winning endgames (otherwise White wouldn't weaken his position in such a way); merely they are a symptom of him having to attack the Black King. The root cause of this is the minority attack, and this is why most Sicilian endgames are winning for him. The minority attack is also a theme in any Rook endgames, so it's not just a late middlegame idea."

Do you know the Sicilian, the „cheap trick“? Once again we have to summon old master Michael Stean. It's 47 years old! Could be written yesterday. "Minority attacks derive from the Pawn structure, Pawn structures derive from the opening. Go back to the eras of Capablanca and Alekhine and you will see Queen's Gambits, hoards of them, with hoards of minority attacks descending from them. Nowadays [1978; still relevant] the Sicilian Defense is all the rage. Sicilians here, Sicilians there, Sicilians absolutely everywhere. Why this saturation with Sicilians? Does the Mafia's influence really extend this far? The answer lies in the minority attack. The whole idea of the Sicilian is for Black to trade his c Pawn for the d Pawn. White almost invariably obliges: 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 (or d6 or e6 or g6) 3.d4 cxd4, when Black immediately arrives at a minority attack Pawn structure. Half-open c file, extra central pawn, 2-3 minority on the Queenside; these are all the necessary ingredients. Sounds infallible, so where's the snag? Why doesn't Black win every game? The problem is of course that White has a lead in development in the early stages, which may prove difficult to survive. Black's prospects lie later in the game when the winds of White's initiative have blown themselves out." The structural weaknesses White accepts because he is trying to avoid Black's plan to launch a minority attack to get a winning endgame and must attack. They are not the cause of Black having winning endgames (otherwise White wouldn't weaken his position in such a way); merely they are a symptom of him having to attack the Black King. The root cause of this is the minority attack, and this is why most Sicilian endgames are winning for him. The minority attack is also a theme in any Rook endgames, so it's not just a late middlegame idea."

zandbelt

#40

As a beginner I played Caro-Kann quite often, and still being a low-level player over time I just started playing 1. e4,c5.
Most of the times I play more or less the (less agressive) Scheveningen. I feel that's slightly easier just playing some basic moves (pawns to d6 and e6, Knights often to their natural squares etcetera) and from there start practicing middle games. Feel like Najdorf or other variations are bit more complex and beging a bit hyped as well (for club/amateur players? Anyway for all variants you can find some nice courses / lessons here on the lichess website.
Without going in too much theory and lines of variations a Scheveningen style Sicilian opening is not too comlicated for low-level players like me ;-) if I may say so. And when you misjudge a move in the first 5-8 moves thatś just a lesson learned and you will avoid that misjudgment the next game. At the moment I play this as black most frequently after 1.e4 and every now and then I choose c6 and try a Caro-Kann for variation.

"a flexible chocie for Black"

Learn the Sicilian Scheveningen - Chess Openings Explained - Saint Louis Chess Club
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmPf2mwFK2Y

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Defence,_Scheveningen_Variation

In the end of course it's all a matter of personal taste and see for yourself what you are comfortable in.

As a beginner I played Caro-Kann quite often, and still being a low-level player over time I just started playing 1. e4,c5. Most of the times I play more or less the (less agressive) Scheveningen. I feel that's slightly easier just playing some basic moves (pawns to d6 and e6, Knights often to their natural squares etcetera) and from there start practicing middle games. Feel like Najdorf or other variations are bit more complex and beging a bit hyped as well (for club/amateur players? Anyway for all variants you can find some nice courses / lessons here on the lichess website. Without going in too much theory and lines of variations a Scheveningen style Sicilian opening is not too comlicated for low-level players like me ;-) if I may say so. And when you misjudge a move in the first 5-8 moves thatś just a lesson learned and you will avoid that misjudgment the next game. At the moment I play this as black most frequently after 1.e4 and every now and then I choose c6 and try a Caro-Kann for variation. "a flexible chocie for Black" Learn the Sicilian Scheveningen - Chess Openings Explained - Saint Louis Chess Club https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kmPf2mwFK2Y https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicilian_Defence,_Scheveningen_Variation In the end of course it's all a matter of personal taste and see for yourself what you are comfortable in.