c4 the best initial move????

I never make a c4 move.

c4 the best initial move?

There are several equally good first moves.

It feels like a very practical move because it has less transpositions to d4 openings than Nf3. Many players like e5 in principle but have no idea when to break with d5 and can be strangled. Of course I think one (to some extent) understand 1 d4 to get the most out of 1 c4 by the time you do that your opponents will have a pet line for c4 or just transpose to their favorite d4 defense.

As for e4 and d4, everyone has a pet line against them.

How can it be the best opening if virtually all d4 defenses have no downside against it? 1 e4 seems to have the most unique positions and that is why it's played to death in part. Stockfish considers almost anything equal, the point is to get positions you have more experience/preparation than the opponent.

C4 does have it beneficial quality and that is the English opening is nearly a comprehensive system on its own, they can play any moves as black and you are taken care of, where as E4 you must learn many different openings to weld it and win.

The standings for 1.c4 ... is not set in stone with one ply count, but maybe more clear if you add up all ply counts or settle for the sum of 5 PV lines from the analysis. Then you have the Black move that needs to be played to give the move number one a best absolute value for that move. Once both players have played their turn it creates the move.

You need to discover all 400 move possibilities to have a complete overview of move standings. Then you sort them on a spread sheet and discover which combination is the best initial move combination.

Find the help mate games for each first move and analyse them to know the centipawn values.
Get the games analysed for best case scenario values for black and best case scenarios for white. @Amitinga

https://helpman.komtera.lt/

https://lichess.org/analysis/rnbqkbnr/ppppp1p1/5p1p/8/8/2P5/PPQPPPPP/RNB1KBNR_w_KQkq_-_0_1?color=white
If you cannot see a mate in one, than d4 is the next best move.

Here are the 5 PV lines from the analysis. I added them up and sorted them, just for all of you.
By adding up the PV lines c4 is best !!

Better for white
1 c4 ... 0.4 + 0.5 + 0.6 + 0.6 + 0.8 = +2.9 Peak value.
1 e4 ... 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.4 + 0.6 = +1.8
1 Nf3 ... 0.2 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.4 = +1.5 (This Is what I played all week)
1 g3 ... 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.3 = +1.0
1 Nc3 ... (-0.1) + 0.1 + 0.3 + 0.3 + 0.4 = +1.0
1 c3 ... 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.2 + 0.3 = +0.9
1 e3 ... 0.0 + 0.1 + 0.1 + 0.2 +0.3 = +0.7
1 d4 ... 0.0 + 0.0 + 0.1 + 0.2 + 0.2 = +0.5 Last candidate move before it goes negative.

Better for black
1 b3 ... (-0.1)+(-0.1)+0.0+0.0+0.1 = (-0.1)
1 d3 ... (-0.1) + (-0.1) + 0.0 + 0.0 + 0.0 = (-0.2)
1 h3 ... (-0.1)+0.0+0.0+0.0+0.0 = (-0.1)
1 a3 ... (-0.1)+0.0+0.0+0.0+0.0 = (-0.1)
1 b4 ... (-0.1)+(-0.1)+0.0+0.0+0.1 = (-0.1)
1 a4 ... (-0.2)+(-0.2)+(-0.1)+0.0+0.0 = (-0.5)
1 f4 ... (-0.3)+(-0.3)+(-0.2)+(-0.2)+(-0.2) = (-1.2)
1 f3 ... (-0.8)+(-0.8)+(-0.7)+(-0.5)+(-0.4) = (-1.2)
1 h4 ... (-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.3)+(-0.2) = (-2.0)
1 Nh3 ... (-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.4)+(-0.4)+(-0.3) = (-2.1)
1 Na3 ... (-0.3)+(-0.3)+(-0.2)+(-0.2)+(-0.2) = (-3.2)
1 g4 ... (-1.7)+(-1.0)+(-1.0)+(-0.9)+(-0.7) = (-5.3) If an engine plays this move would they still win in self-play mode?

If you're Magnus it does not amount to a hill of beans, your first move.

@clousems
@dukedog

Magnus plays 1. h4 (-2.0) and it is like a two pawn advantage for black, but it's not a 2 passed pawn advantage. There's a big difference in the meaning that it only take two pawns to win. So it's not that bad h4. With an engine that -2 pawn disadvantage for white makes for a longer game and still a draw. Seems like white needs to pick a move worse than -2.0 to start losing.

https://lichess.org/pcHZj5HC#257

@Toscani said in #37:

Magnus plays 1. h4 (-2.0) and it is like a two pawn advantage for black
In what universe? Latest stockfish evaluates 1.h4 as -0.4 to -0.5, hardly a winning advantage at all. In fact, your own analysis board evaluates it as -0.52.

@corvusmellori You said in what universe are you in. Don't bother reading post # 35. Just look at this:
1 h4 ... (-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.3)+(-0.2) = (-2.0)
The values you see come directly from the lichess cloud analysis at a depth of 40 !!

Let me copy paste what i see on my screen. I'm just going to truncate it a bit to reduce the assumed next moves.
The fact that it has more negative numbers than the other moves should mean something to a chess player.

-0.5
SF 16 · 40MB NNUE
Depth 40/99 ∞
-0.5 1... d5 2. d4 c5 3. e3 Nf6 ...
-0.5 1... Nf6 2. d4 d5 3. Bf4 c5 ...
-0.5 1... e5 2. c4 Nf6 3. d3 Bc5 ...
-0.3 1... e6 2. e4 d5 3. e5 c5 ...
-0.2 1... c5 2. e4 Nc6 3. Nc3 Nf6 ...

Now add the negative values up, as if you were thinking out of the box, like you should be doing.
The result will be (-2.0) for the total 5 plies.

In the post #35, all 20 moves got a different value by adding them up and when it got compare it pointed the finger to 1. c4 as best move. Without adding them up, it's like not wanting to see the bigger picture. By looking only one move, we get the engine tunnel vision effect. By add the PV values up, we get the bigger picture.

Doesn't every one think out of the box? I guess not.

Well with 1. Nh3 it created a ½-½ Threefold repetition • Draw.
Black ended up with even more material, but it's still a drawn game.

1 Nh3 ... (-0.5)+(-0.5)+(-0.4)+(-0.4)+(-0.3) = (-2.1)

https://lichess.org/Zy5ZiAJN#212