Trans players in chess

@AsDaGo said in #99:

That is a potential problem, but it is much more harmful to exclude trans women entirely. Then we can cross that bridge when we get to it. As far as I know, that has never been a real problem, but I could be mistaken. @Anareza_Firiojzja also makes some good suggestions (although #3 might exclude some genuinely trans people).

So in your personal opinion, you'd be willing to risk cheaters and bad faith actors in tournaments where prize money is on the line, because it's worse to not include trans people than it is to prevent cheating from happening, yes?

Don't you think its harmful to the trans if bad faith actors got in and made a mockery of the real trans and making trans look bad through association?

And as far as I know, there are plenty of instances in professional sports where bad faith cheaters pretend to be trans to win.
Just one off the top of my head is Avi Silverberg, but I know there are many more examples of such things.

@felixnothus said in #101:

So in your personal opinion, you'd be willing to risk cheaters and bad faith actors in tournaments where prize money is on the line, because it's worse to not include trans people than it is to prevent cheating from happening, yes?

Don't you think its harmful to the trans if bad faith actors got in and made a mockery of the real trans and making trans look bad through association?

And as far as I know, there are plenty of instances in professional sports where bad faith cheaters pretend to be trans to win.
Just one off the top of my head is Avi Silverberg, but I know there are many more examples of such things.

i think that is a very rare case and should in theory not be to hard to spot, and again there is always asking for ID. the only instance i have seen of something like this, was some guy in africa wore a full burka to hide his face and sneak into the womens section, but he was excatly claiming to be trans

@Anareza_Firiojzja said in #102:

Like I've already mentioned, Avi Silverberg is from Canada and he entered a womens weightlifting competition, and in Canada you can literally get your gender changed on your ID by going to a doctor and telling them you identify as trans and they will grant you it no questions asked, there are youtube videos of people doing exactly that showing how easy it is.

And now you've just mentioned a second case of this in Africa of all places where they don't exactly have a very trans-positive society... the point is that if people can cheat in a tournament where money is on the line and think they can get away with it, it will happen... so don't you think its important that we have the safeguards in place to do as much as possible to make sure that it can't happen?

So even if its rare... If just ONE, just ONE, got into a womens tournament and won when they were not legitimately trans... you don't think that would be an major harm towards trans people and the future of them competing in such tournaments?
Are you willing to risk just having ONE person be responsible for destroying the ability of transwomen to compete in womens tournaments? Cus thats all that it would take. Just one. And you don't think there aren't people who are willing to cheat when major money is on the line, that everyone that plays competitive chess is a kind and decent person who would never cheat?

Because we already know, there are already many such examples of such cheating scandals in professional chess, so do you really think the risk is that negligible?

@Anareza_Firiojzja said in #95:

i think the best way to decide is have a large discusion involveing female over the board players about what it is best for the game, and ultimatly let them decide. however i will say from what i have seen, that vast vast majority of people i have talked to have supported it, i my self was asked to play in the english womens championship for exsample

The subject is such minefield that they may not feel comfortable expressing their true feelings. I'm thinking of that female swimmer that spoke out and all the harassment she received.

@felixnothus said in #101:

So in your personal opinion, you'd be willing to risk cheaters and bad faith actors in tournaments where prize money is on the line, because it's worse to not include trans people than it is to prevent cheating from happening, yes?

Exactly. Excluding trans women for this reason is like banning all people named Hans because they might be cheaters.

Don't you think its harmful to the trans if bad faith actors got in and made a mockery of the real trans and making trans look bad through association?

That is true, but it is much more harmful to exclude them entirely.

And as far as I know, there are plenty of instances in professional sports where bad faith cheaters pretend to be trans to win.
Just one off the top of my head is Avi Silverberg, but I know there are many more examples of such things.

Are there any examples of this in chess? I haven't heard of any, and if not, then we shouldn't cause more harm by being paranoid.

@RustedCrown said in #104:

The subject is such minefield that they may not feel comfortable expressing their true feelings. I'm thinking of that female swimmer that spoke out and all the harassment she received.

maybe, but i cant operate under the assumption that i am not welcome in female tournaments when women keep telling me i am

Finally, real problems

@AsDaGo said in #105:

Exactly. Excluding trans women for this reason is like banning all people named Hans because they might be cheaters.

That's not exactly analogous to this situation here though is it.
It's more like banning all people who insist on not being scanned for transmitting devices before tournaments.
You know that people say "Just trust me I"m being honest" isn't going to cut it.
You need quality assurance. You need to prove that you qualify as a transwoman and just claiming you are one, doesn't qualify you as one.
If all people named Hans all of sudden said "You can't scan me just trust me I'm being honest" then we probably should just ban all people named Hans.

That is true, but it is much more harmful to exclude them entirely.

But they aren't excluded entirely and you know that.
They can totally compete in open tournaments right?
It's not like they're saying trans people can't compete, they just can't compete within the womens section, because they don't qualify as women, just as non GM's can't compete in GM tournaments because they don't qualify as GM's.

IF anything, if you think trans people deserve to compete in a social category, a trans category would be the fairest thing to do, because they qualify as a transwoman.

Are there any examples of this in chess? I haven't heard of any, and if not, then we shouldn't cause more harm by being paranoid.

You know damn well the answer to that is no because.... transwomen aren't allowed to compete in womens tournaments so of course the answers no.

There literally hasn't been the opportunity for it to happen.

So if you want to argue that legitimate transwomen should be able to compete in womens tournaments, you need to come up with some way of proving that someone is legitimately trans.

But as we can see... there really is no way of doing this because the difference between a transwoman and man pretending to be a transwoman is literally impossible to tell because aside from being committed enough to get surgery... transwomen and men pretending to be trans, are indistinguishable.

Also, I just can't help but notice you don't want to acknowledge non binary people should also qualify as women if trans people are allowed to qualify as women.
Seriously, how is that supposed to be handled, because claiming to be non binary is literally that... all you gotta do is claim you are non binary and like magic, you are non binary. Surely, non binary people deserve to also play with transwomen in womens tournaments, right?

This isn't just about transwomen, right, non-binary people also are just as legitamite as trans, right?

@felixnothus said in #91:

If we should allow people to be included by their identity, then I identity as a GM and should be allowed to play in GM tournaments.

Exactly ! this is about equality! We want equal rights!

@felixnothus said in #96:

Sincere question.

Assume trans players are allowed to play in womens tournaments.

Since the condition of being trans is based completely on feelings, something that no one but the person feeling those feelings, knows, how do you know who is genuinely a transwoman and someone that is just pretending to be a transwoman to enter womens tournaments?

What prerequisites should there be, if any, to be considered an eligible transwomen to enter womens tournaments?

If you actually watch the Yo

Should they be openly trans for a certain amount of time? Do they have to identify as trans from a certain age, or can they realise they are trans at any age?

What about say, non binary players, who on some days, feel like they are male, and on other days, feel they are female?
Should they be allowed to compete in womens tournaments if they're not biologically female?

If so, how do you know who is genuinely trans/nonbinary, and whose faking it to get into womens spaces?

Surely there needs to be some sort of safe guards to prevent bad actors from entering, would you not agree, or do you think that absolutely anyone who claims to be trans/nonbinary at any point in their lives should be allowed and that we should just accept everyone who makes this claim?
If you actually watch Yosha youtube video, she explains it perfectly!:)) Sadly there are problems with when you change gender, which she also explains:)) Due to National Chess Federations and FIDE :((