Doubling Down on Why Lichess Should Add a Report Denial Feature

@InkyDarkBird said in #34:

...were not respectful? Most of them followed the forum etiquette, so I do not see your point.

from your selection that is true but i have answered alot of forms about it and i assume you have seen them too
i agree some do but alot wont. But also think do you really believe the people that 100% believe x is cheating would take no for an answer

Feel free to call one over, then.
sadly not friends with them but you can(surprised they have not spoken about it yet)

No proof to currently warrant such a claim.
says the man that wont show proof that his problem exist other then form posts

@for_cryingout_loud said in #42:

i agree some do but alot wont. But also think do you really believe the people that 100% believe x is cheating would take no for an answer
A large majority would take it, which would still solve a major portion of the issue.

sadly not friends with them but you can(surprised they have not spoken about it yet)
Anonmod terminated communications with me after I shared his PMs.

says the man that wont show proof that his problem exist other then form posts
And what else do you expect? You want me to compile a giant list and give a graphical step-by-step analysis? That would take ages.

Guys, I do believe you all are making great arguments about the cheat detection, but none of you have argued about normal reports, such as bullying or harassment.

@Molurus said in #38:

I understand that people very much want to have their debate about why they are convinced that one of their opponents cheated. But honestly... I think most people have a very strong tendency to overestimate their own ability to recognize cheaters. It's mostly a Dunning-Kruger effect again taking hold. That being the case... I'm sure the Lichess volunteers (!!!) have far more useful things to do than having a debate with people who really have no idea what they're talking about.
Lichess moderators do not have to debate about cheating.
As I said before, they just have to say that their cheating tool confirmed that they were cheating or not.
Cheating does not require a debate whatsoever when the entirety of evidence relies on programs.

@kinsana said in #40:

If I may, i feel that InkyDarkBird doesn't question at all the competence of the team dedicated to the cheat detection. There is absolutely no doubt that the mods are the specialists in that matter and that the userbase, for obvious reason, shouldn't have access to how the system works in detail. But please, also understand that there is fair & good will wanting to know more about the fate reserved to those reports. Cheating maybe over estimated, but the opacity around the cheat detection doesn't help people realizing that they are maybe not as good as they would like to be.
Probably from his point of view (and also mine), we simply do not understant why providing a simple answer, positive or negative (for example "not enough arguments") to a cheating report filed by a simple user would help the cheaterbase...
I do not understand this conclusion. You literally state that the opacity around cheat detection doesn't help, and then you proceed to slightly contradict yourself?

@InkyDarkBird said in #44:

Lichess moderators do not have to debate about cheating.
As I said before, they just have to say that their cheating tool confirmed that they were cheating or not.
Cheating does not require a debate whatsoever when the entirety of evidence relies on programs.

I don't think it's regular moderators who make the call or who are directly involved in cheat detection. That said: informing people that their report was rejected only and very strongly invites such debates. I guarantee people will be posting their anger about it in Lichess feedback and will be directly accusing players in the process. And to what purpose? It seems completely pointless to me.

@Molurus said in #46:

I don't think it's regular moderators who make the call or who are directly involved in cheat detection.
They should still be involved in the report process to some degree

That said: informing people that their report was rejected only and very strongly invites such debates.
Why? If they argue that, then they are going against Lichess's cheating system which has effectively caught thousands of cheaters.

Alright, here is a SUMMARY:
Lichess moderators should implement a report denial system, consisting of a statement saying that your report was denied and the reason why.
This would increase trust and understanding in the Lichess userbase of moderators and the cheat detection system, which there is a current lack of.
The current reporting system makes users feel ignored when their report gets denied, and they do not understand why.

TO ANSWER CHEATING, Lichess moderators can simply state that the Lichess cheating detection tool did not catch them cheating.
If they go against it, shame on them and we can ignore them, but some of them will definitely accept it, and that is enough.
No arguing necessary.

Just PLEASE talk about normal reports, such as harassment and bullying, already.
Even if a report denial system is neutral towards the cheating system, it would still help with normal reports.

Im not sure if i understood u correct but, if anyone gets marked for cheating lets say, the person who got marked doesnt even know why. Even if he/she is innocent. It just says cheating and done. No information about what even happend. Why would u as the reporter should get more information?

@Molurus said in #38:

Secondly: most chess servers, including Lichess, do not - ever - discuss methods of cheat detection and cheat analysis. This is for a good reason: it's not likely to improve trust in the cheat detection, and most of all it would very much help cheaters cheat.

I'd nuance this: most good chess servers who care about cheating do not discuss specific players, even when doing so could get millions of views on Twitch or YouTube, or get millions of players angry at your site. Most good chess servers have integrity.

@InkyDarkBird said in #45:

I do not understand this conclusion. You literally state that the opacity around cheat detection doesn't help, and then you proceed to slightly contradict yourself?

If you read back my post carefully, you'll see that i'm on your side saying also that Lichess misses a follow-up somewhere :)