People are blaming Kramnik, and even GMs like Nihal are criticizing him. What do you all think?

@badqubit said in #33:

Nobody dies because of false accusations. This guy had far bigger and longlisting problems. People can't reconcile this reality with the saint image of Naroditsky they try to project and promote the dumb idea of a perpetrator.

it's highly disturbing that you're blaming a person for having suicidal thoughts

Like it has nothing to do with being a saint, he WAS a saint in his deeds to others, maybe he had underlying anxieties and problems, but Kramnik exploited that and maliciously attacked him for a year (and purpose intentionally to get him to act on them and do something like this, tho i won't say that without proof because false accusations are Kramnik's thing), there is no way that he's not to blame

You can't just treat a person with mental problems like whatever just because they have underlying problems anyway, not to mention there is very little evidence of Danya having mental problems before this drama, while it became clear that he was spiralling AFTER it, which suggests that this did play a huge role

@CyberShredder said in #45:

Kramnik is right that the chess world is super fake. This idea that you can drive someone to suicide by suspecting them of cheating is ridiculous. Naroditsky himself at some point said that cheating accusations shouldn't be taken personally if someone is accused.

'Should' is a pipe dream, a lot of things 'should' be done, but that's not reality
By your logic, you should never really be resorting to something like this anyway
Kramnik does not care what his actions do to others, he only cares about himself.. he was fading into obscurity as a player so he decided to stay in relevance by becoming a face that everyone in the chess world will hate, in order to stay relevant

And Carlsen accusing Niemann was much bigger case than Kramnik accusing anybody. Carlsen has 1000x times more credibility in popular world. But if Niemann killed himself because of it I wouldn't blame Carlsen either.

Carlsen did not harass Niemann nearly as much as Kramnik harassed his victims, but even then if Niemann committed suicide Carlsen would hold SOME of the blame if the accusations were false indeed

i don't know if Carlsen rly thought that Hans cheated or he did not but was just saying it, but I DO know for sure that Kramnik knew for sure that Danya did not cheat, it was an attempt to destroy Danya's mental health and cope with how Kramnik is not as good at the only thing he was good at anymore (and let's be honest if he wasn't a GM idk who would care about a sleaze like him)

Get realistic, I am supposed to believe that Kramnik who has 20000 subscribers on YouTube and Twitter is bullying Nakamura, GothamChess, Naroditsky that have millions of fans. Most people don't even watch his side of the story. And also, yes, a lot of chess "content creators" are Chess.com partners and it does affect their coverage of "chess drama". It's not chess mafia it's a reality.

Not in Russia tho?

What is public record is that Naroditsky was overworking, he was chronically online, playing/streaming/commentating non-stop. That took a toll on him. Also, there were multiple cases of very strong young chess grandmasters dying under strange circumstances before en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urii_Eliseev / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivan_Bukavshin / en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanislav_Bogdanovich

His last stream (it's uploaded in some places) he was visibly in deep pain and/or on something. His friends came to him and stopped him from playing. But in retrospective it was a half-measure, and chess world should've acted strongly (but ultimately it was his choice)

Yeah you saw his condition but you never bothered to think about its cause

Another point. Multiple times already I saw Titled players getting banned by Lichess/Chess.com they go on reddit/YouTube and say how they are 100% percent innocent. And maybe it's true. But you are not gonna like it when those same titled chess players gonna be ranting on the internet saying how they are gonna commit suicide because their reputation is tarnished.

Yes but getting banned and getting harassed continuously are completely different
And maybe Danya was very sensitive, but that does not excuse Kramnik's behaviour

He needs to be banned from FIDE events forever

@hangmysack said in #70:

#1 ) yes, accusing someone of cheating merely because you can't believe they beat you fair and square is wrong and it has to stop. Everyone is innocent until proven guilty. Such acusations need to be backed up by solid evidence.

#2 ) "Cancelling" kramnk won't bring Daniel back. All the hate and toxicity being directed at him now is not unlike the toxicity that got Daniel into a poor mental space. In Daniel's honor, we should strive to be and do bettert. Rather than focusing on a single individual , his death should spark a wider discussion about the terrible harm that is done when a player baselessly accuses a fellow player of cheating without solid evidence, merely because their ego can't take the fact that they lost. There have been several high profile cases, Kramik-Naroditsky was just one of them. Let's not have these illicit double standards where we hate on one GM and yet defend another GM when both GMs have engaged in accusing a fellow player of cheating with little to no evidence. This toxic practice has to stop, and it should not have taken the death of a GM to realize this but we are where we are.

Who is to say Kramnik won't do the same to others? Hmm?
By your logic justice is futile because in many cases the damage has been done, so what's the point?

I am not trying to be cynical, i do understand your perspective and I agree that we should not be spreading toxicity but I think there's a slight problem with that line of thinking in this situation

It's not just about Danya, it's about this deranged individual who harasses other players for no reason without evidence, and how dire the consequences of that can become, if unchecked, as in this case

We cannot bring Danya back but the fact that he died thinking that Kramnik had succeeded and Danya's reputation was destroyed forever, and we CAN make sure Kramnik will never try something like this again

@ELO5287 said in #71:

You hope that the whole chess community ostracizes him because it's so morally reprehensible to bully or harass someone. Makes sense. Why you people can't see the blatant hypocrisy in what you're saying baffles me. It's so clear.

" Keeping someone locked is a bad thing, so why should we jail criminals? Aren't we just as bad as they are for taking away their freedom and even punishing them? "

@SticksNStones said in #82:

Ρε φίλε σκέψου το λίγο.
Carlsen, Dubov and some other top Gms did not participate in tournaments in which Hans was playing for some time.
Then, they participated but refused to play against Hans.
In an online game, Carlsen resigned on move 2. On another game, Dubov never appeared and then said he fell asleep. They were indirectly complaining about Hans being invited. Does this not qualify as bullying? Hans just happened to be mentally stronger. Initially, I believed they were right to do so. I do not like Hans. I think he has cheated(I mean apart from the occassions he admitted himself). But I do not have proof! When Danya died, I realised this sheet is dangerous and that I was making a mistake. I just happened to not be a public figure. But if I was?

Anyway, that was not the main point. You can forget it. The main point was that the only reasonable way to restrict someone and orient their word(before law enforcement), is to tell them they are talking trash when they are talking trash. It doesn't matter who they are. Whether it's Magnus or a 500 elo player. No kindness, no tolerance. This was not done by the majority of the top Gms(with some exceptions) when Kramnik started hunting Danya and others. And as much as I like Carlsen and I have been following him since 2012, he did not do it either. Only some witty answers when an Interviewer asked in random occassions or a sentence every now and then in twitter or something. Is this support?
As for Organizations, they are always too late. When they react, it is to punish, not to prevent.

I mean, if you see a woman getting attacked in the street but you move on without reacting, and then, you see in the news that she died because of an attack in the sreet and you start mourning and act surprised, are you not a hypocrite? And if not hypocrite, are you not at least responsible to some extend?
That was the point I tried to make without success as it seems.

You saying society is hypocritical is nothing new

But Kramnik exploited that to take the life of an innocent person
He might not be the sole problem but he is still a person with malicious and vile intent who needs to be punished appropriately
I don't see what the point of your message is

Are you saying that we should stop punishing criminals because sometimes bystanders are silent? Like what??

@ArtofDefeat said in #90:

Re the mother's comment, OK, he was bothered. And that is a shame. But there is a big difference between suicide or OD vs something like an aneurism.

Kramnick is an asshole and I have no problem with people that want him sanctioned for delusional accusations. But sanctioning him for contributing to the death without knowing the cause of death is just bizarre.

Yeah okay maybe there were other reasons but he still harassed Danya relentless for a year, and who knows how many individuals who we might not know like we know Danya

He clearly has a problem and needs to be sanctioned by FIDE and all other bodies

@SD_2709 said in #95:

You saying society is hypocritical is nothing new

But Kramnik exploited that to take the life of an innocent person
He might not be the sole problem but he is still a person with malicious and vile intent who needs to be punished appropriately
I don't see what the point of your message is

Are you saying that we should stop punishing criminals because sometimes bystanders are silent? Like what??

never mind