Is using a real board considered cheating? • page 3/4 • General Chess Discussion • lichess.org

I have been playing correspondence since the post card in the mail days. We always used a board, moved the pieces around, tried out the lines, with no suggestion it was improper.
If it's a game where a clock is ticking, it doesn't seem helpful, and maybe forbidden. It is more like you are sitting at the board, where of course you could not use a separate analysis set over on the side. But in correspondence, but with one day or more to choose a move, of course we have going to push pieces around a board.
ToS? What is it?

I have been playing correspondence since the post card in the mail days. We always used a board, moved the pieces around, tried out the lines, with no suggestion it was improper. If it's a game where a clock is ticking, it doesn't seem helpful, and maybe forbidden. It is more like you are sitting at the board, where of course you could not use a separate analysis set over on the side. But in correspondence, but with one day or more to choose a move, of course we have going to push pieces around a board. ToS? What is it?

MarkIorio edited

#22

@TAUTKUS

use of board --> "IT IS CHEATING" + "to see who
queens first instead of visualizing the line in your
head"

If someone did that with me, I wouldn't know and I wouldn't care. Calculating on the real board is slower, he would lose time. Worst for him, so, not cheating. Otherwise it would be cheating all the more in correspondence games.

@TAUTKUS > use of board --> "IT IS CHEATING" + "to see who > queens first instead of visualizing the line in your > head" If someone did that with me, I wouldn't know and I wouldn't care. Calculating on the real board is slower, he would lose time. Worst for him, so, not cheating. Otherwise it would be cheating all the more in correspondence games.

WFM Funkmaus

#23

@MarkIorio - I can quote. It is stated in the ToS under the "Fair Play and Community Guidelines"

Cheating. We define this as using any external assistance to strengthen your knowledge and, or, calculation ability to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent. Some examples would include computer engine assistance, opening books (except for correspondence games), endgame tablebases, and asking another player for help, although these aren’t the only things we would consider cheating.

See the "calculation ability" part! And moving pieces around on another board increases it!
It is help from inside - I can see your point - because same player is doing it - but it is help from outside as he can play much better now as he would do without.

#21 You are right, in a real OTB game where a clock is ticking it is forbidden.
Live online chess is meant to be comparable to OTB.
If you were allowed to do that here, they would just allow the analysis board here on lichess.
If you play a game and have analysis board open (even without using it) in another tab, the game will end automatically with the message "cheat detected" and you lose. :<
Just in case it was not a joke, here are the ToS: https://lichess.org/terms-of-service

loool TAUTKUS and thanks... I am part of us, part of the online chess community!
Having a loosy gender-specific title doesnt neither makes me a better person nor a better player.
I am just another patzer, I never considered myself any special or super strong - it is all relative in chess.
There is always someone better...
So happy chessing and all best :-)

@MarkIorio - I can quote. It is stated in the ToS under the "Fair Play and Community Guidelines" -------- 1. Cheating. We define this as using any external assistance to strengthen your knowledge and, or, calculation ability to gain an unfair advantage over your opponent. Some examples would include computer engine assistance, opening books (except for correspondence games), endgame tablebases, and asking another player for help, although these aren’t the only things we would consider cheating. ------- See the "calculation ability" part! And moving pieces around on another board increases it! It is help from inside - I can see your point - because same player is doing it - but it is help from outside as he can play much better now as he would do without. #21 You are right, in a real OTB game where a clock is ticking it is forbidden. Live online chess is meant to be comparable to OTB. If you were allowed to do that here, they would just allow the analysis board here on lichess. If you play a game and have analysis board open (even without using it) in another tab, the game will end automatically with the message "cheat detected" and you lose. :< Just in case it was not a joke, here are the ToS: https://lichess.org/terms-of-service loool TAUTKUS and thanks... I am part of us, part of the online chess community! Having a loosy gender-specific title doesnt neither makes me a better person nor a better player. I am just another patzer, I never considered myself any special or super strong - it is all relative in chess. There is always someone better... So happy chessing and all best :-)

tpr

#24

FIDE Laws of Chess
"12.3 a. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of
information or advice, or analyse on another chessboard."
https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf

FIDE Laws of Chess "12.3 a. During play the players are forbidden to make use of any notes, sources of information or advice, or analyse on another chessboard." https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf

CalbernandHowbe

#25

Whenever I saw a chess match replay I saw the players write down the moves after a move was played. I used to think that they were writing down their possible lines that they had thought out. It would make things a lot easier for me if that were possible, I can only visualise 2 or 3 moves ahead :(

FishNotADish2

#26

Well if this was illegal, KB should be illegal too.
So choose, either to support both, or hate both.

Well if this was illegal, KB should be illegal too. So choose, either to support both, or hate both.

tpr

#27

#25
FIDE Laws of Chess forbid to write down the moves before a move is played, so they must write down after a move is played.

"8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his
opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in
the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the
competition.
It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw
according to Article 9.2, or 9.3 or adjourning a game according to the Guidelines of
Adjourned Games point 1.a.
A player may reply to his opponent’s move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must
record his previous move before making another.
Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (See Appendix C.13)
12
If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter,
may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the
arbiter in an equitable way."

https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf

#25 FIDE Laws of Chess forbid to write down the moves before a move is played, so they must write down after a move is played. "8.1 In the course of play each player is required to record his own moves and those of his opponent in the correct manner, move after move, as clearly and legibily as possible, in the algebraic notation (See Appendix C), on the scoresheet prescribed for the competition. It is forbidden to write the moves in advance, unless the player is claiming a draw according to Article 9.2, or 9.3 or adjourning a game according to the Guidelines of Adjourned Games point 1.a. A player may reply to his opponent’s move before recording it, if he so wishes. He must record his previous move before making another. Both players must record the offer of a draw on the scoresheet. (See Appendix C.13) 12 If a player is unable to keep score, an assistant, who must be acceptable to the arbiter, may be provided by the player to write the moves. His clock shall be adjusted by the arbiter in an equitable way." https://www.fide.com/FIDE/handbook/LawsOfChess.pdf

Megadoggah

#28

A real board is not cheating. Let’s make that clear. It’s only doing anything with it that wouldn’t be allowed in a tournament that is cheating. Like moving the pieces.

Ahmadinejad edited

#29

tpr, #27

Very interesting to learn that FIDE forbids writing down the move first. I used to play in USCF tournaments in the 1990s, and many coaches actually ENCOURAGED players to write down their moves on the scoresheet first, then think about them one more time before moving on the board. Even masters would to it. For instance, an International Master was annotating one of his games for Chess Life magazine, and he mentioned that late in the game his opponent wrote down a move on his scoresheet that was a Huge blunder ( "a Howler that would lose the game immediately " ). He was so afraid of losing his composure that he got up from the board and walked around the tournament hall and looked at some other games. When he returned to the board he saw his opponent had indeed made the blunder he saw him write down earlier, and he went on to win the game with no further problems.

tpr, #27 Very interesting to learn that FIDE forbids writing down the move first. I used to play in USCF tournaments in the 1990s, and many coaches actually ENCOURAGED players to write down their moves on the scoresheet first, then think about them one more time before moving on the board. Even masters would to it. For instance, an International Master was annotating one of his games for Chess Life magazine, and he mentioned that late in the game his opponent wrote down a move on his scoresheet that was a Huge blunder ( "a Howler that would lose the game immediately " ). He was so afraid of losing his composure that he got up from the board and walked around the tournament hall and looked at some other games. When he returned to the board he saw his opponent had indeed made the blunder he saw him write down earlier, and he went on to win the game with no further problems.

MarkIorio edited

#30

@Megadoggah and others
I wouldn't mention 'secondary' chessboard obvious ban in real tournements as an argument against use of a real board when playing online. Of course, shuffling pieces around in presence of your opponent would be an intolerable distraction. Doing that privately, alone in one's own room when playing online is nothing that can affect the other player's thinking.

And I don't consider it as an advantage at all. Considering it like cheating according to ToS is just a personal interpretation. Even if the ToS explicitly forbade moving wooden pieces while playing, there would be absolutely no way to detect it. So, this entire discussion looks pointless.

And of course, @Funkmaus , opening the analysis board on Lichess, /that/ is cheating, because you get information from outside. That has nothing to do with using a wooden set of pieces.

@Megadoggah and others I wouldn't mention 'secondary' chessboard obvious ban in real tournements as an argument against use of a real board when playing online. Of course, shuffling pieces around in presence of your opponent would be an intolerable distraction. Doing that privately, alone in one's own room when playing online is nothing that can affect the other player's thinking. And I don't consider it as an advantage at all. Considering it like cheating according to ToS is just a personal interpretation. Even if the ToS explicitly forbade moving wooden pieces while playing, there would be absolutely no way to detect it. So, this entire discussion looks pointless. And of course, @Funkmaus , opening the analysis board on Lichess, /that/ is cheating, because you get information from outside. That has nothing to do with using a wooden set of pieces.