Flag with pending draw offer • page 1/2 • General Chess Discussion • lichess.org

In an OTB tournament game this week, I had the strong side of a tricky bishop endgame when my opponent offered a draw. I spent the last two minutes on my clock trying to calculate a win and, failing to do so (afterward, tablebases confirmed the position was in fact drawn), accepted the offer at (literally) the last second. My flag fell during the handshake. There was no dispute about this and the game was recorded as a draw.

What would have happened, I wondered, if I had failed to accept the draw in time? I had to look it up:

"14B4 Flag fall during pending draw offer. A player who offers a draw may claim a win on time (13C) if the opponent oversteps the time limit while considering the proposal unless the offer is accepted before the flag fall (5G) is claimed." --USCF handbook

So it was in fact important that my acceptance was timely.

For online play, this rule would clearly be the right thing. With all actions mediated through the server, there can be no question as to the sequence of events, and awarding a draw after a flag fall in this instance would encourage abuse (stalling to waste the opponent's time). For OTB play, though, it seems dubious, and could lead to hard-to-adjudicate disputes. A worst-case scenario might be:

Black: "I acc-"

White: "FLAG!"

Black: "-ept."

in which case it is likely that the sequence of events will be disputed and any decision by the TD is going to have to be completely arbitrary.

Since the kind of time abuse that happens in online play isn't really a thing in OTB play, I don't see any upside to this rule. Why not make it the rule that a (properly claimed) fallen flag with a pending draw offer is a drawn game?

In an OTB tournament game this week, I had the strong side of a tricky bishop endgame when my opponent offered a draw. I spent the last two minutes on my clock trying to calculate a win and, failing to do so (afterward, tablebases confirmed the position was in fact drawn), accepted the offer at (literally) the last second. My flag fell during the handshake. There was no dispute about this and the game was recorded as a draw. What would have happened, I wondered, if I had failed to accept the draw in time? I had to look it up: "14B4 Flag fall during pending draw offer. A player who offers a draw may claim a win on time (13C) if the opponent oversteps the time limit while considering the proposal unless the offer is accepted before the flag fall (5G) is claimed." --USCF handbook So it was in fact important that my acceptance was timely. For online play, this rule would clearly be the right thing. With all actions mediated through the server, there can be no question as to the sequence of events, and awarding a draw after a flag fall in this instance would encourage abuse (stalling to waste the opponent's time). For OTB play, though, it seems dubious, and could lead to hard-to-adjudicate disputes. A worst-case scenario might be: Black: "I acc-" White: "FLAG!" Black: "-ept." - in which case it is likely that the sequence of events will be disputed and any decision by the TD is going to have to be completely arbitrary. Since the kind of time abuse that happens in online play isn't really a thing in OTB play, I don't see any upside to this rule. Why not make it the rule that a (properly claimed) fallen flag with a pending draw offer is a drawn game?

Bill_Likes_Chess

#2

I think that Lichess should not allow you to request a draw when it's your turn to play, after all, people tend not to accept or deny the draw anyway so you get to waste your time.

dfranke

#3

@Bill_Likes_Chess This is another case where the rules for online and OTB play ought to differ, and in this one they in fact do. In OTB play it's illegal to offer a draw when it's not your turn. The correct sequence is to play your move, offer a draw, then press your clock, but it's also legal to make the offer before playing your move. The offer remains in effect until you opponent has completed his next move. Offering a draw during your opponent's time is considered distracting and can be penalized.

In online play, distraction is much less of an issue so Lichess allows draw offers at any time. Am I reading you right that you think draw offers should be allowed only during your opponent's time? I don't see the point of that.

@Bill_Likes_Chess This is another case where the rules for online and OTB play ought to differ, and in this one they in fact do. In OTB play it's illegal to offer a draw when it's not your turn. The correct sequence is to play your move, offer a draw, then press your clock, but it's also legal to make the offer before playing your move. The offer remains in effect until you opponent has completed his next move. Offering a draw during your opponent's time is considered distracting and can be penalized. In online play, distraction is much less of an issue so Lichess allows draw offers at any time. Am I reading you right that you think draw offers should be allowed *only* during your opponent's time? I don't see the point of that.

Bill_Likes_Chess edited

#4

Yes, I think this rule must be the same in OTB and online chess. You shall not offer a draw before you complete your move, you shall only offer a draw once it's your opponent's turn to play. And as I said before, there have been many times my opponents just did nothing and waited for my time to run out when I requested a draw on my turn, hasn't that happened to you?

dfranke

#5

@Bill_Likes_Chess why are you sitting and waiting for your opponent rather than making a move? After your move the draw offer remains in effect, so now your opponent has to consider it on his time rather than yours.

Bill_Likes_Chess

#6

@dfranke You are actually right, no idea why I wait like an idiot, I thought the draw was cancelled if I were to play a move lol

CM Sarg0n

edited

#7

Some remarks:

-in fact it is pretty pointless to decide to play on with almost no time. You don’t win being a Q up deciding to play on with your last seconds. So waiting until 0s is no good.
-actually my recommended version would be: stop the clock first followed by shake hands with the words: I accept
-offering draw when it is your turn is utterly useless, your opponent doesn’t have to react and even he finds the winning move after you are entitled to accept the draw offer (unless it‘s checkmate ;) )

Some remarks: -in fact it is pretty pointless to decide to play on with almost no time. You don’t win being a Q up deciding to play on with your last seconds. So waiting until 0s is no good. -actually my recommended version would be: stop the clock first followed by shake hands with the words: I accept -offering draw when it is your turn is utterly useless, your opponent doesn’t have to react and even he finds the winning move after you are entitled to accept the draw offer (unless it‘s checkmate ;) )

tpr

#8

FIDE Laws of Chess
b. If the rules of a competition allow a draw agreement the following apply:
(1) A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the
chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent’s clock.
An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 12.6 must be
considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer
cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects
it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or
capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way.
So oral accept before flag fall = draw
Flag fall before oral accept = loss on time

FIDE Laws of Chess b. If the rules of a competition allow a draw agreement the following apply: (1) A player wishing to offer a draw shall do so after having made a move on the chessboard and before stopping his clock and starting the opponent’s clock. An offer at any other time during play is still valid but Article 12.6 must be considered. No conditions can be attached to the offer. In both cases the offer cannot be withdrawn and remains valid until the opponent accepts it, rejects it orally, rejects it by touching a piece with the intention of moving or capturing it, or the game is concluded in some other way. So oral accept before flag fall = draw Flag fall before oral accept = loss on time

dfranke

#9

@Sarg0n I had a 10-second delay, it was a heavily simplified position and I had a pawn on the seventh rank, so it was reasonable to hope that there was a winning combination such that I could have finished off the game with the delay alone. Alas, there wasn't.

dfranke

#10

@tpr I agree with you about interpreting the FIDE rules, given that they say "or the game is concluded in some other way" and are otherwise silent on the matter, but they're not terribly clear. The USCF rules, while I think they should be changed, are at least clear and explicit,.