@KarlDerKaese said in #10:
It takes white 3 moves to get the knight to d4 (d4, Nf3, Nxd4) and black two moves (c5, cxd4). After this exchange white has developed a knight (+1), moved it to d4 and opened the dsb (+1). So white spends one more tempo in this exchange but gains two development tempi + the knight moved to d4.
Its moving the same piece twice for only one reason, to open up the bishop. which, you may argue gains a tempo, but it is black to move. So, I think: Nf3(+1) Nc6/d6(+1) d4(+1) cxd4(-0) Nxd4(-0). d4 per se opens up the bishop. So Its pretty equal in terms of tempo. So my question is pretty much why white opens up the centre without castling. its a chess principle. I have never seen any chess principle guide/blog/article mention this is an exception for the Sicilian.
@KarlDerKaese said in #10:
> It takes white 3 moves to get the knight to d4 (d4, Nf3, Nxd4) and black two moves (c5, cxd4). After this exchange white has developed a knight (+1), moved it to d4 and opened the dsb (+1). So white spends one more tempo in this exchange but gains two development tempi + the knight moved to d4.
Its moving the same piece twice for only one reason, to open up the bishop. which, you may argue gains a tempo, but it is black to move. So, I think: Nf3(+1) Nc6/d6(+1) d4(+1) cxd4(-0) Nxd4(-0). d4 per se opens up the bishop. So Its pretty equal in terms of tempo. So my question is pretty much why white opens up the centre without castling. its a chess principle. I have never seen any chess principle guide/blog/article mention this is an exception for the Sicilian.
One should not take opening principles too literally, they are just guidelines that can help you when you don’t know the theory. However if you know the theory, you can usually trust it, as it was verified by analytical work and tested in thousands of human and engine games.
One should not take opening principles too literally, they are just guidelines that can help you when you don’t know the theory. However if you know the theory, you can usually trust it, as it was verified by analytical work and tested in thousands of human and engine games.
@uri65 said in #12:
One should not take opening principles too literally, they are just guidelines that can help you when you don’t know the theory. However if you know the theory, you can usually trust it, as it was verified by analytical work and tested in thousands of human and engine games.
This is the type of answer I thought was right. I never knew why so many opening principles overlapped each other and the scenarios they would be applied in. So basically, learning theory is easier than learning the exceptions of breaking opening principles. Although, why? why does unprincipled stuff work?
@uri65 said in #12:
> One should not take opening principles too literally, they are just guidelines that can help you when you don’t know the theory. However if you know the theory, you can usually trust it, as it was verified by analytical work and tested in thousands of human and engine games.
This is the type of answer I thought was right. I never knew why so many opening principles overlapped each other and the scenarios they would be applied in. So basically, learning theory is easier than learning the exceptions of breaking opening principles. Although, why? why does unprincipled stuff work?
@Fenamer said in #13:
Although, why? why does unprincipled stuff work?
Because principles don’t take into account the concrete features and specifics of each position. Correct position assessment and precise calculation is more important than following the principles.
Let's take an example of "Castle early" principle. The general idea is to get your king to safety quickly. But what if the queens were exchanged early? The position assessment should tell you that the danger for the king is greatly reduced and castling is not necessarily the best option, it might be better to keep the king centralized. Or imagine a position where you see a possibility to castle. You follow the principle blindly and don't notice that 4 opponent's pieces are directed at your castle - that's a sure way to be under terrible attack immediately. Yes you followed the principle, but you forgot to do the position assessment.
@Fenamer said in #13:
> Although, why? why does unprincipled stuff work?
Because principles don’t take into account the concrete features and specifics of each position. Correct position assessment and precise calculation is more important than following the principles.
Let's take an example of "Castle early" principle. The general idea is to get your king to safety quickly. But what if the queens were exchanged early? The position assessment should tell you that the danger for the king is greatly reduced and castling is not necessarily the best option, it might be better to keep the king centralized. Or imagine a position where you see a possibility to castle. You follow the principle blindly and don't notice that 4 opponent's pieces are directed at your castle - that's a sure way to be under terrible attack immediately. Yes you followed the principle, but you forgot to do the position assessment.
You need to play aggressively as white in the open Sicilian, this is why so many players dislike it, it takes tactical creativity and energy to beat it and if you don't approach it that way and black equalizes they will gain a tremendous counterattack rapidly down the c-file and in the centre...some of the most beautiful attacking games have come from the open sicilian...if its not your style play c3 instead of d4...
Develop quickly in the open, castle queenside and launch a no holds barred attack with your kingside pawns...best way to tackle it imo and puts the willys up black!
You need to play aggressively as white in the open Sicilian, this is why so many players dislike it, it takes tactical creativity and energy to beat it and if you don't approach it that way and black equalizes they will gain a tremendous counterattack rapidly down the c-file and in the centre...some of the most beautiful attacking games have come from the open sicilian...if its not your style play c3 instead of d4...
Develop quickly in the open, castle queenside and launch a no holds barred attack with your kingside pawns...best way to tackle it imo and puts the willys up black!
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@Fenamer said in #5:
I know, but why do grandmasters, titled players, experts, who suggest following opening principles, most of them, play the opening principles, which doesn't make sense on so many levels? It just seems like a no-brainer to develop the bishop and more importantly, the pawn structure! why do you allow black to enjoy a nice position with TWO central pawns? It now looks like a suicidal move to me, and there is no 'initiative'. If white was offered initiative, then no one would be playing the siclian.
Because the sicilian is based upon the minority attack
@Fenamer said in #5:
> I know, but why do grandmasters, titled players, experts, who suggest following opening principles, most of them, play the opening principles, which doesn't make sense on so many levels? It just seems like a no-brainer to develop the bishop and more importantly, the pawn structure! why do you allow black to enjoy a nice position with TWO central pawns? It now looks like a suicidal move to me, and there is no 'initiative'. If white was offered initiative, then no one would be playing the siclian.
Because the sicilian is based upon the minority attack
@Autofill said in #17:
Because the sicilian is based upon the minority attack
*attack
@Autofill said in #17:
> Because the sicilian is based upon the minority attack
*attack
Fenamer, #1
The open Sicilian breaks a lot of important opening principles, like wasting a tempo by allowing black to do smth after Nxd4, opening the centre before castling, trading a center pawn for a side center pawn, delaying castling, like what is this? is this a strategic opening trap?
Right or wrong (sometimes I find that I'm partially right, partially wrong),
I like that you've done your own assessment. Regardless of what "theory" says or "accepted knowledge" / dogma says, it's important to decide what works best in your own play based on your own tastes and individual penchants and skills. The open sicilian works very well for particular skillsets; not very well at all for others. There's nothing alien about your take on it.
---------------->
GM Bent Larsen probably had far better insights into it than any of us here (he was a 4-time candidate for World Champion, and ranked #4 in the world in the early 1970s during the heyday of Fischer, Spassky, and Petrosian. I read once how he felt the Open Sicilian was akin to White trying to catch Black with a cheapo, at the price of an extra center pawn. Here is what he had to say, and think it's very reflective of your intuitive take:
( Discussion recounted in "How to Open a Chess Game" )
<< "Almost everyone plays 3 d4. But isn't that a positional error? I'm not joking. I like my centre pawns, and I like a QP better than a QBP! I know that sometimes White sacrifices a knight on d5 or e6 and smashes Black before he can castle, but in those games where this has been done, haven't improvements always been found for Black afterward? Well then, isn't 3 d4 something like a cheap trap? I know it can be combined with purely strategical ideas, but I find it easier to discuss strategy when I have an extra centre pawn! " >>
I'm MUCH more a positional player than anything else. But I have by far more comfortable games playing Black with the sicilian than with anything else. Black can must handle the opening stage with the utmost care, or the position can become critical and hanging on by a thread very quickly. But if White fails to exploit his opening trumps, the initiative will often shift to black.
Fenamer, #1
> The open Sicilian breaks a lot of important opening principles, like wasting a tempo by allowing black to do smth after Nxd4, opening the centre before castling, trading a center pawn for a side center pawn, delaying castling, like what is this? is this a strategic opening trap?
Right or wrong (sometimes I find that I'm partially right, partially wrong),
I like that you've done your own assessment. Regardless of what "theory" says or "accepted knowledge" / dogma says, it's important to decide what works best in your own play based on your own tastes and individual penchants and skills. The open sicilian works very well for particular skillsets; not very well at all for others. There's nothing alien about your take on it.
---------------->
GM Bent Larsen probably had far better insights into it than any of us here (he was a 4-time candidate for World Champion, and ranked #4 in the world in the early 1970s during the heyday of Fischer, Spassky, and Petrosian. I read once how he felt the Open Sicilian was akin to White trying to catch Black with a cheapo, at the price of an extra center pawn. Here is what he had to say, and think it's very reflective of your intuitive take:
( Discussion recounted in "How to Open a Chess Game" )
<< "Almost everyone plays 3 d4. But isn't that a positional error? I'm not joking. I like my centre pawns, and I like a QP better than a QBP! I know that sometimes White sacrifices a knight on d5 or e6 and smashes Black before he can castle, but in those games where this has been done, haven't improvements always been found for Black afterward? Well then, isn't 3 d4 something like a cheap trap? I know it can be combined with purely strategical ideas, but I find it easier to discuss strategy when I have an extra centre pawn! " >>
I'm MUCH more a positional player than anything else. But I have by far more comfortable games playing Black with the sicilian than with anything else. Black can must handle the opening stage with the utmost care, or the position can become critical and hanging on by a thread very quickly. But if White fails to exploit his opening trumps, the initiative will often shift to black.
#19
Thats kind of the point. White trades the center pawn in hopes of converting the initiative into a long lasting advantage
#19
Thats kind of the point. White trades the center pawn in hopes of converting the initiative into a long lasting advantage