What is lag switching?

@GnocchiPup said in #38:

It's a hassle, but will having a stat called average packet loss work?

Then, people like penguin can filter them out much like filtering out lower rated folks. In this case, filter out high packet loss individuals.

I don't think that's a good idea. The goal should be to allow players with different connection qualities to play games equitably. Not to give players a way to avoid others whose network quality is poor.

And then if someone has low average packet loss, but suddenly becomes abnormally high when playing hyperbullet, then that could be an indicator of lag switching.

It could also be an indicator that they are playing on their phone instead of their desktop. Or that some node on their route is under a heavy load. In other words, it's not really a reliable indicator of anything in particular at all.

@mrjbones said in #40:

Eh... doesn't follow.

I can't help you there.

Eh... no. Lag is normal and so is packet loss. Packet loss is one cause of lag.

Using VPN switching to artificially change lag causes packet loss and retransmissions.
You can shape traffic and artificially add delay without losing any packets, but not by turning your VPN off and on.

I don't really get what you are trying to say here.

I can't help you there.

Oh? How so? What does "ordinary" even mean here? What's ordinary for me probably isn't what's ordinary for you. And what's ordinary for me on Mondays may be different than what's ordinary for me on Tuesdays. What's ordinary for me in the afternoon may be different than what's ordinary for me during the evening. What's ordinary for you when you play on your phone probably isn't what's ordinary for you when you play on your desktop. Etc.

statistics. one of the ways engine use is detected. either statistical analysis on packet loss or lag compensation, or both.

assuming the current lag compensation stays the same, I would say lichess should, at a minimum, time someone out for an hour or a day from ultra bullet if they trigger x number lag compensations regardless of whether they are gaming the lag compensation feature artificially or not.

@h2b2 said in #39:

lichess could keep track of how many times it has given lag compensation.

From lichess.org/lag: "Compensation limits and heuristics are based on time control and already compensated lag".

if someone in a 10 second game was given lag compensation 30 times, whereas the average for all players in a 10 second game is less than 1, that deserves some investigation.

I think there's a misunderstanding in this statement. Lichess doesn't decide to give compensation on one move and not another. Compensation is calculated for every move.

Besides that though... how exactly are they going to investigate?

it already gives an indication of network quality. I'm not sure exactly what's it's showing, I think rtt aka lag.
I think 4 bars is low ping time, 1 bar is high ping time. It could also indicate the number of lag compensations given.

Round-trip-time isn't "lag." Sometimes (like in the lichess gui) it is called "ping." Lag is sometimes used as a synonym for the technical term "latency." Latency is the time it takes a packet to reach its destination. RTT is very often used to measure latency, but it is imperfect because return paths (or conditions) can be different. This may be uncalled for pedantry, but the more you know....

@mrjbones said in #43:

I think there's a misunderstanding in this statement.

probably.

Round-trip-time isn't "lag." Sometimes (like in the lichess gui) it is called "ping." Lag is sometimes used as a synonym for the technical term "latency." Latency is the time it takes a packet to reach its destination. RTT is very often used to measure latency, but it is imperfect because return paths (or conditions) can be different. This may be uncalled for pedantry, but the more you know....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(video_games)

"In computers, lag is delay (latency) between the action of the user (input) and the reaction of the server supporting the task, which has to be sent back to the client."

sounds like rtt to me. i didn't read the whole thing though.

sounds like lag includes the time the request takes to be processed and sent by the client, the time it takes to get to the server, the time the server takes to process the request and send the response, the time the response takes to reach the client, and, the time the client takes to process the response.

@h2b2 said in #44:

probably.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lag_(video_games)

That wikipedia entry isn't really a very good one. ("This article has multiple issues. ") Like I said, I was being pedantic.... but understanding the actual technical meanings of the different terms should be helpful in this conversation, which is why I shared.

As I pointed out in an earlier response to you, "lag" isn't really a very technical term. It's used more to describe an experience doing something online. (Although, in the IT world, it is very commonly used, albeit loosely, as a synonym for latency.)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_(engineering)

"Lag, as it is known in gaming circles, refers to the latency between the input to a simulation and the visual or auditory response"

And, yes, that would include processing time.

I should add that that's not a great article in general either... and wikipedia probably isn't the best source for info on this stuff.

Just saw #42.

@h2b2 said in #42:

Using VPN switching to artificially change lag causes packet loss and retransmissions.
You can shape traffic and artificially add delay without losing any packets, but not by turning your VPN off and on.

So what if you can? It's much easier to just briefly break your connection. Packet loss isn't at all suspicious.

BTW, even getting data about retransmissions might not be so easy to do... It's easy enough in C, but I don't know if Scala has an API for it and I kind of doubt it.

statistics. one of the ways engine use is detected. either statistical analysis on packet loss or lag compensation, or both.

Ok, sure... but nvm packet loss.... if you found that people always lagged when playing UB but never seemed to when playing higher time-controls, you could probably infer that they are cheating. I don't know if lichess keeps stats over time on player lag. I doubt they do. I've previously suggested that they should (and that they should make that data available in game info. I'd like to see how much compensation time my opponent and I got on each move.)

assuming the current lag compensation stays the same, I would say lichess should, at a minimum, time someone out for an hour or a day from ultra bullet if they trigger x number lag compensations regardless of whether they are gaming the lag compensation feature artificially or not.

I don't necessarily think people should be penalized just because they lag a lot. I do, however, think that lichess should switch to a proper timeseal-like strategy... because it's really the right way to do it. The goal is for both players to get an equal time to think for their moves, and that's the way to ensure that they do.

from what I'm reading and what you said, lag isn't a technical term, gamers coined the term to describe slow response and updates.

Round-trip-time isn't "lag."

lag includes rtt as well as server and client response time. see wikipedia, wikipedia can be edited by anyone with any level of intelligence and qualifications, so you know it can be trusted.

This article has multiple issues. "

This article needs additional citations for verification. (April 2011)
This article possibly contains original research. (December 2008)
This article contains instructions, advice, or how-to content. (April 2016)

because the term was coined by gamers with no formal definition. there's nothing to cite. so, you correcting me about what you believe the definition of lag is and representing your definition as the one true one is...not really in good faith.

That wikipedia entry isn't really a very good one.

au contraire

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latency_(engineering)

"Lag, as it is known in gaming circles, refers to the latency between the input to a simulation and the visual or auditory response"

unfortunately That wikipedia entry isn't really a very good one. ("This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed. ")

since wikipedia can be edited by anyone with any level of intelligence and qualifications, it can't be trusted. The definition of lag isn't well definite but your definition is wrong and mine is right. This may be uncalled for pedantry, but the more you know....

I should add that that's not a great article in general either... and wikipedia probably isn't the best source for info on this stuff.

oh.

anyway. you seem to argue in bad faith quite frequently.

ie, here's something you said in this tread

"Lag switching does not change your IP address. And there is no way that lichess can tell if you are connecting and disconnecting from your VPN."

later you said to me

"Lichess doesn't detect a "disconnection" ... there is no disconnection..."

ok. whatever trevor.

I was using the term disconnection the same way you were. the vpn was disconnected. it annoyed me when you used the term disconnect and later said there is no disconnection. bad faith arguing, trying to find the worst possible meaning of what someone said. Then I thought, I don't want to feel annoyed. so I decided to find it funny.

@h2b2 said in #47:

I was using the term disconnection the same way you were. the vpn was disconnected. it annoyed me when you used the term disconnect and later said there is no disconnection. bad faith arguing, trying to find the worst possible meaning of what someone said. Then I thought, I don't want to feel annoyed. so I decided to find it funny.

Ok, I understand why you are confused about the disconnection issue. When I said there is no disconnection, I was talking about the TCP connection. Disconnecting your VPN briefly doesn't cause your TCP connection to go away. And lichess can't detect that you've disconnected from your VPN; they can only tell that your lag has increased.

As to the definition of lag... a couple of things... the term wasn't coined by gamers. It's been used in IT since at least the early 90's when I started working in the field and it probably goes back at least another decade. And I really wasn't trying to define it... just telling you how it is used both by users (gamers included) and among those who do work in IT (where it can be a stand-in for more the more technical term "latency.")

I really haven't been arguing with you at all; I've been trying to explain a bunch of different facets of a very technical subject with an apparent layman (excuse me if that assumption is incorrect.) There's a lot of jargon involved and sometimes there is overlap with plain English (e.g. the misunderstanding around "disconnection.")

I'll stand by what I said about wikipedia, however, if you want to actually learn the subject, here are some really good places to start...

www.amazon.com/Internetworking-TCP-IP-One-6th/dp/013608530X
www.amazon.com/TCP-Illustrated-Protocols-Addison-Wesley-Professional/dp/0321336313
www.amazon.com/TCP-IP-Illustrated-Implementation-Vol/dp/020163354X
www.amazon.com/TCP-Illustrated-Transactions-Addison-Wesley-Professional/dp/0201634953
www.amazon.com/UNIX-Network-Programming-Richard-Stevens/dp/0139498761

dude. you're something else.

Ok, I understand why you are confused about the disconnection issue.

haha. you are something else. no point explaining, you'll misinterpret it again.

here's the 1st definition of argue.

give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.

@h2b2 said in #49:

here's the 1st definition of argue.

give reasons or cite evidence in support of an idea, action, or theory, typically with the aim of persuading others to share one's view.

I don't care whether you share my point of view or not.

Here's a def'n of educate:

Give (someone) training in or information on a particular field.

You entered this conversation with the statement "I don't know anything about lag switching. I do know about VPNs."

Now, maybe, you know a little more about both, and a little more about networking in general. But if not, I've given you links to some excellent books that are very often required reading for people schooled in the subject. HTH

But you seem to have developed some sort of attitude about it (*you" are something else), so I'm done with ya. I simply don't care if you remain ignorant on the subject or not. As you once said, "whatever Trevor."

Have a great day!