So this just happened last night in an over the board game...
Opponent was very low on time, he has a King and Queen, I have a King and several pawns (and loads of time).
On the move where he took my last pawn, when he hit his clock, I noticed he had flagged, his clock was showing 0:00. It’s possible he had flagged several moves ago, but I didn’t notice. He immediately claimed a draw, and at the time I just thought yeah, insufficient material, that’s right; but now I’m not so sure.
My question is, does that last move of his count, as he was out of time, meaning I won the game. Or does the insufficient material rule mean it was a drawn game?
Thanks.
So this just happened last night in an over the board game...
Opponent was *very* low on time, he has a King and Queen, I have a King and several pawns (and loads of time).
On the move where he took my last pawn, when he hit his clock, I noticed he had flagged, his clock was showing 0:00. It’s possible he had flagged several moves ago, but I didn’t notice. He immediately claimed a draw, and at the time I just thought yeah, insufficient material, that’s right; but now I’m not so sure.
My question is, does that last move of his count, as he was out of time, meaning I won the game. Or does the insufficient material rule mean it was a drawn game?
Thanks.
In situations like this, the referee should be the one making the decision.
In situations like this, the referee should be the one making the decision.
If a position had arisen (move executed, clock doesn’t count) which cannot be won = draw. Unless: arbiter had recognized „flag“ before. One has to claim flag.
If a position had arisen (move executed, clock doesn’t count) which cannot be won = draw. Unless: arbiter had recognized „flag“ before. One has to claim flag.
Flag fall doesn't count until it is 'noticed' - either by the opponent or the arbiter. So as @Sargon says, you have to claim the flag.
If your opponent's flag falls, you don't claim it, and then they play checkmate, the checkmate takes priority and they win the game (even if the flag actually fell three moves before the checkmate and the clock is showing a little flag sign, it doesn't matter, flag fall does not occur until it is either claimed or noticed by the arbiter).
Likewise, as soon as a position has arisen in which you cannot win by any sequence of legal moves, then you cannot win the game, whether or not their flag falls right now or actually fell ten moves ago - the flag fall does not occur until you claim it.
Flag fall doesn't count until it is 'noticed' - either by the opponent or the arbiter. So as @Sargon says, you have to claim the flag.
If your opponent's flag falls, you don't claim it, and then they play checkmate, the checkmate takes priority and they win the game (*even* if the flag actually fell three moves before the checkmate and the clock is showing a little flag sign, it doesn't matter, flag fall does not occur until it is either claimed or noticed by the arbiter).
Likewise, as soon as a position has arisen in which you cannot win by any sequence of legal moves, then you cannot win the game, whether or not their flag falls right now or actually fell ten moves ago - the flag fall does not occur until you claim it.
Thank you everyone for your responses and clarification of the rules. :)
It's a pity, but I'll of course have to chalk it up to experience and try to avoid a similar situation in future.
I'm a little peeved because of the way my opponent played and how the game concluded. It was the most unpleasant game of chess I have ever played, by far. He just came across as rude, lots of little things really, for example...
He puts a bag of sweets down on table, starts munching on them.
He puts his smart-phone down on table (it's switched on), starts playing with that, scrolling with fingers etc. Not sure what he was looking at.
Offers a draw when he has 30 seconds on clock (it was a 2.5 hour game), saying my position is hopeless (it wasn't) and that he won't offer again. All said in a really smarmy cocky unpleasant way.
I generally found his manner to be unpleasant and rude.
In contrast, the vast majority of people I have come across in the chess world (well, locally to me), have been pleasant and interesting people.
Crossing paths with unpleasant individuals, sure makes you appreciate all the decent people there are in chess.
Thank you everyone for your responses and clarification of the rules. :)
It's a pity, but I'll of course have to chalk it up to experience and try to avoid a similar situation in future.
I'm a little peeved because of the way my opponent played and how the game concluded. It was the most unpleasant game of chess I have ever played, by far. He just came across as rude, lots of little things really, for example...
He puts a bag of sweets down on table, starts munching on them.
He puts his smart-phone down on table (it's switched on), starts playing with that, scrolling with fingers etc. Not sure what he was looking at.
Offers a draw when he has 30 seconds on clock (it was a 2.5 hour game), saying my position is hopeless (it wasn't) and that he won't offer again. All said in a really smarmy cocky unpleasant way.
I generally found his manner to be unpleasant and rude.
In contrast, the vast majority of people I have come across in the chess world (well, locally to me), have been pleasant and interesting people.
Crossing paths with unpleasant individuals, sure makes you appreciate all the decent people there are in chess.
@cosmic4z I don't know the exact setting, but if its a graded game and someone starts fiddling with their smartphone you could normally claim a forfeit.
Anyway...you'll be ready next time!
@cosmic4z I don't know the exact setting, but if its a graded game and someone starts fiddling with their smartphone you could normally claim a forfeit.
Anyway...you'll be ready next time!
@piscatorox It was an ECF graded game in a local league.
To be honest, it's not so much the lost win that bothers me, as the character and poor etiquette on the part of my opponent. I guess that kind of thing happens from time to time in chess (and in life) and it's not something rules can really address.
The other aspect to this is how did I perform? I mean, when someone is trying to unsettle you, how do you maintain a calm state of mind and keep a focus on the game, finding the best move etc? I think that's the challenge here, for me, rather than trying to change the behaviour of others, how do I improve self-mastery and remain untouched by an opponents psychological shenanigans!? I feel like it's an ongoing work in progress. One of the wonderful facets of the chess journey...
@piscatorox It was an ECF graded game in a local league.
To be honest, it's not so much the lost win that bothers me, as the character and poor etiquette on the part of my opponent. I guess that kind of thing happens from time to time in chess (and in life) and it's not something rules can really address.
The other aspect to this is how did I perform? I mean, when someone is trying to unsettle you, how do you maintain a calm state of mind and keep a focus on the game, finding the best move etc? I think that's the challenge here, for me, rather than trying to change the behaviour of others, how do I improve self-mastery and remain untouched by an opponents psychological shenanigans!? I feel like it's an ongoing work in progress. One of the wonderful facets of the chess journey...
Munching over the board: disturbing can be sanctioned
A mobile switched on: instant loss, any excuse is futile
Munching over the board: disturbing can be sanctioned
A mobile switched on: instant loss, any excuse is futile
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo90
ppppppppppppppppppppppppppppoooooooooooooooooooooooooooo90
@Sarg0n I think in some of the English evening local leagues they are a little more tolerant with phones, e.g. the first sound of a phone is a warning rather than a forfeit. The logic being (I think) that players are all coming from work, by necessity many will have phones on them, some players will forget to turn them off, and for relatively low-level (although graded) games in what is meant to be a friendly atmosphere, the leagues err a bit to the side of charity in preferring the game to be decided over the board than by a human error in forgetting to turn the phone off.
Not in all - it depends on whatever the league rules are.
But however charitable, I would indeed be surprised if scrolling through the phone on a board was not regarded as against the league rules and subject to a forfeit.
@Sarg0n I think in some of the English evening local leagues they are a little more tolerant with phones, e.g. the first sound of a phone is a warning rather than a forfeit. The logic being (I think) that players are all coming from work, by necessity many will have phones on them, some players will forget to turn them off, and for relatively low-level (although graded) games in what is meant to be a friendly atmosphere, the leagues err a bit to the side of charity in preferring the game to be decided over the board than by a human error in forgetting to turn the phone off.
Not in all - it depends on whatever the league rules are.
But however charitable, I would indeed be surprised if scrolling through the phone on a board was not regarded as against the league rules and subject to a forfeit.