Can anybody tell me the answer? Just curious, as I've only witnessed regular bans of unfriendly users or cheaters. Many thanks :)
@DuBiOuSikUn said in #1:
> Can anybody tell me the answer? Just curious, as I've only witnessed regular bans of unfriendly users or cheaters. Many thanks :)
That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
Regarding a ban I can imagine that you would be notified that you have been banned, the reasons of the ban you may never know, the reasons are not mandatory to be explained because lichess in their Terms of Service say they can close the account of anyone at anytime (permanent ban) without a reason and without having to explain any reason to anyone, this was also another post and another old claim I have made to them to change in the TOS (Terms of Service) because it is illegal, never I had a feedback of any change going on or even a proposal to take part in the necessary changes, things are the same.
My claims to improve and make the site transparent and in line with the law (For example United Nations has made cyberspace equivalent to the real world regarding Human Rights -one of them is free speech - the right to exist -the right to cyberexist and they cannot kill your cyberlife at anytime and without explanations - etc. etc. ) but lichess has not at all updated the TOS so far, I wonder if they have taken steps in this direction, In return of these claims I only get attacks from trolls very close to lichess or moderators, I am being insulted, threatened, probably shadow banned like now and provokers are never banned or shadow banned. Moderators also take defensive positions of my claims instead of taking note of what they have to change to improve and be transparent and they enter into for them before-hand lost battles in the exchange of ideas arena to later disappear after being publicly defeated in the discussion. Moderation level is quite low by the way, understandable when they do not get paid or are badly paid cause it is not really a job.
Ask someone with authority here to get the official version, they will send you to read the TOS, wrong and non compliant with United Nations declaration to say the least. All in all lichess people do not like to be shown their mistakes, applaud the mistakes of their blind ego until your hands bleed and you will be more than welcome, that's all.
> Can anybody tell me the answer? Just curious, as I've only witnessed regular bans of unfriendly users or cheaters. Many thanks :)
That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
Regarding a ban I can imagine that you would be notified that you have been banned, the reasons of the ban you may never know, the reasons are not mandatory to be explained because lichess in their Terms of Service say they can close the account of anyone at anytime (permanent ban) without a reason and without having to explain any reason to anyone, this was also another post and another old claim I have made to them to change in the TOS (Terms of Service) because it is illegal, never I had a feedback of any change going on or even a proposal to take part in the necessary changes, things are the same.
My claims to improve and make the site transparent and in line with the law (For example United Nations has made cyberspace equivalent to the real world regarding Human Rights -one of them is free speech - the right to exist -the right to cyberexist and they cannot kill your cyberlife at anytime and without explanations - etc. etc. ) but lichess has not at all updated the TOS so far, I wonder if they have taken steps in this direction, In return of these claims I only get attacks from trolls very close to lichess or moderators, I am being insulted, threatened, probably shadow banned like now and provokers are never banned or shadow banned. Moderators also take defensive positions of my claims instead of taking note of what they have to change to improve and be transparent and they enter into for them before-hand lost battles in the exchange of ideas arena to later disappear after being publicly defeated in the discussion. Moderation level is quite low by the way, understandable when they do not get paid or are badly paid cause it is not really a job.
Ask someone with authority here to get the official version, they will send you to read the TOS, wrong and non compliant with United Nations declaration to say the least. All in all lichess people do not like to be shown their mistakes, applaud the mistakes of their blind ego until your hands bleed and you will be more than welcome, that's all.
@DuBiOuSikUn Below and extract of interest where humans right are made equivalent in cyberspace by United Nations
The HRC (Human Rights Council from United Nations) has stated that "the same rights that people have offline must also be protected online" (mentioning, in particular, freedom of expression).[2] It is widely regarded that this freedom of information must be balanced with other rights. The question is raised whether people's expectations of human rights are different in cyberspace.[3]"
The source is in the link below with other considerations of interest.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_cyberspace
Obviously in the offline world a Shadowban would be illegal and directly a crime , there are cases in history where some leaders, presidents were in the belief of being reading a traditional newspaper of national scope when in fact was a very special newspaper prepared on purpose to give good news to the president when the country was sinking into chaos. There is still debate on this really happened nobody could prove it happened ... or not ! basically a President that could not make a distinction between a fake newspaper and a real one would be questioned of his mental health and so this was never admitted.
The link to this historical situation follows ( it is in Spanish, I could not find an English version but it speaks about this "special" journal made for a president in Argentina in 1930)
sigificadoyorigen.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/el-diario-de-irigoyen/
Same happened to Stalin during WW2 and after, he could not trust his own people trying to show him (shadow banning) him that everything was fine, so he purged his sorroundings from time to time to have a clear view.
This is also profusely dealt with in the Oddisey by Homer in the quest of Telemachus for his father Oddesius, interestingly an empire falling due to "shadow banning" the Emperor by his faithful servants.
Also in Buddhism this situation is dealt with when former Buddah named as Prince Sidharta grows up within the borders of a palace where everything is joy and happiness as his father wanted for him, up to the extent that when Sidharta left the boundaries of the castle and meets a man on the road and ask him what kind of a living being he was and the man replied "I am a man, like you though I am an old man". Sidharta has never seen an old man, oldage was new to Shidarta he did not know that people become old, that was one starting point on his travel to become Buddah.
The HRC (Human Rights Council from United Nations) has stated that "the same rights that people have offline must also be protected online" (mentioning, in particular, freedom of expression).[2] It is widely regarded that this freedom of information must be balanced with other rights. The question is raised whether people's expectations of human rights are different in cyberspace.[3]"
The source is in the link below with other considerations of interest.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_rights_in_cyberspace
Obviously in the offline world a Shadowban would be illegal and directly a crime , there are cases in history where some leaders, presidents were in the belief of being reading a traditional newspaper of national scope when in fact was a very special newspaper prepared on purpose to give good news to the president when the country was sinking into chaos. There is still debate on this really happened nobody could prove it happened ... or not ! basically a President that could not make a distinction between a fake newspaper and a real one would be questioned of his mental health and so this was never admitted.
The link to this historical situation follows ( it is in Spanish, I could not find an English version but it speaks about this "special" journal made for a president in Argentina in 1930)
sigificadoyorigen.wordpress.com/2010/04/29/el-diario-de-irigoyen/
Same happened to Stalin during WW2 and after, he could not trust his own people trying to show him (shadow banning) him that everything was fine, so he purged his sorroundings from time to time to have a clear view.
This is also profusely dealt with in the Oddisey by Homer in the quest of Telemachus for his father Oddesius, interestingly an empire falling due to "shadow banning" the Emperor by his faithful servants.
Also in Buddhism this situation is dealt with when former Buddah named as Prince Sidharta grows up within the borders of a palace where everything is joy and happiness as his father wanted for him, up to the extent that when Sidharta left the boundaries of the castle and meets a man on the road and ask him what kind of a living being he was and the man replied "I am a man, like you though I am an old man". Sidharta has never seen an old man, oldage was new to Shidarta he did not know that people become old, that was one starting point on his travel to become Buddah.
@Artem-Kozirev said in #2:
> That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
>
> lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
>
> Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
>
> But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
>
> Regarding a ban I can imagine that you would be notified that you have been banned, the reasons of the ban you may never know, the reasons are not mandatory to be explained because lichess in their Terms of Service say they can close the account of anyone at anytime (permanent ban) without a reason and without having to explain any reason to anyone, this was also another post and another old claim I have made to them to change in the TOS (Terms of Service) because it is illegal, never I had a feedback of any change going on or even a proposal to take part in the necessary changes, things are the same.
>
> My claims to improve and make the site transparent and in line with the law (For example United Nations has made cyberspace equivalent to the real world regarding Human Rights -one of them is free speech - the right to exist -the right to cyberexist and they cannot kill your cyberlife at anytime and without explanations - etc. etc. ) but lichess has not at all updated the TOS so far, I wonder if they have taken steps in this direction, In return of these claims I only get attacks from trolls very close to lichess or moderators, I am being insulted, threatened, probably shadow banned like now and provokers are never banned or shadow banned. Moderators also take defensive positions of my claims instead of taking note of what they have to change to improve and be transparent and they enter into for them before-hand lost battles in the exchange of ideas arena to later disappear after being publicly defeated in the discussion. Moderation level is quite low by the way, understandable when they do not get paid or are badly paid cause it is not really a job.
>
> Ask someone with authority here to get the official version, they will send you to read the TOS, wrong and non compliant with United Nations declaration to say the least. All in all lichess people do not like to be shown their mistakes, applaud the mistakes of their blind ego until your hands bleed and you will be more than welcome, that's all.
I do not believe you are shadowbanned, as I can read your posts. Unless I got shadowbanned too?
> That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
>
> lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
>
> Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
>
> But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
>
> Regarding a ban I can imagine that you would be notified that you have been banned, the reasons of the ban you may never know, the reasons are not mandatory to be explained because lichess in their Terms of Service say they can close the account of anyone at anytime (permanent ban) without a reason and without having to explain any reason to anyone, this was also another post and another old claim I have made to them to change in the TOS (Terms of Service) because it is illegal, never I had a feedback of any change going on or even a proposal to take part in the necessary changes, things are the same.
>
> My claims to improve and make the site transparent and in line with the law (For example United Nations has made cyberspace equivalent to the real world regarding Human Rights -one of them is free speech - the right to exist -the right to cyberexist and they cannot kill your cyberlife at anytime and without explanations - etc. etc. ) but lichess has not at all updated the TOS so far, I wonder if they have taken steps in this direction, In return of these claims I only get attacks from trolls very close to lichess or moderators, I am being insulted, threatened, probably shadow banned like now and provokers are never banned or shadow banned. Moderators also take defensive positions of my claims instead of taking note of what they have to change to improve and be transparent and they enter into for them before-hand lost battles in the exchange of ideas arena to later disappear after being publicly defeated in the discussion. Moderation level is quite low by the way, understandable when they do not get paid or are badly paid cause it is not really a job.
>
> Ask someone with authority here to get the official version, they will send you to read the TOS, wrong and non compliant with United Nations declaration to say the least. All in all lichess people do not like to be shown their mistakes, applaud the mistakes of their blind ego until your hands bleed and you will be more than welcome, that's all.
I do not believe you are shadowbanned, as I can read your posts. Unless I got shadowbanned too?
@Autofill said in #4:
> I do not believe you are shadowbanned, as I can read your posts. Unless I got shadowbanned too?
Ok, thanks for the feedback, could be the shadow ban was implemented for certain threads, or activities, or perhaps it has not been implemented at all by lichess. In fact there is still an ongoing discussion if shadowban is legal with arguments for both sides by organizations that deal with cyberlaw. If shadowban exists it should be clearly defined, part of the TOS and with a defined scope and procedures to protect lichess for any future action against the site, in real life the similar idea to an online shadowban is illegal, if shadowban is a subset of a ban ... could be though nothing has been clarified so far.
> I do not believe you are shadowbanned, as I can read your posts. Unless I got shadowbanned too?
Ok, thanks for the feedback, could be the shadow ban was implemented for certain threads, or activities, or perhaps it has not been implemented at all by lichess. In fact there is still an ongoing discussion if shadowban is legal with arguments for both sides by organizations that deal with cyberlaw. If shadowban exists it should be clearly defined, part of the TOS and with a defined scope and procedures to protect lichess for any future action against the site, in real life the similar idea to an online shadowban is illegal, if shadowban is a subset of a ban ... could be though nothing has been clarified so far.
People get chatbanned for consistently breaking chat etiquette, for serious abuse or for being a jerk. With the immensely populist attitude seen in the thread linked and in other places, I could guess you're not very far away from it.
Lichess makes no bones about using shadowbans and its probably the lesser evil to reduce the amount of ban evasions this way. Also in the appeal they are certainly more transparent about chatban reasons than about cheating, because the former is less prone to unproductive debates and cheat detection methods must be kept secret for the sake of their protection
by the way, when a thread has 50 or more posts, it's no longer bumped in the list, and once the few active people left are tired of it and call it a day, it's no surprise it gets no more replies
Lichess makes no bones about using shadowbans and its probably the lesser evil to reduce the amount of ban evasions this way. Also in the appeal they are certainly more transparent about chatban reasons than about cheating, because the former is less prone to unproductive debates and cheat detection methods must be kept secret for the sake of their protection
by the way, when a thread has 50 or more posts, it's no longer bumped in the list, and once the few active people left are tired of it and call it a day, it's no surprise it gets no more replies
@Artem-Kozirev said in #2:
> That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
>
> lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
>
> Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
>
> But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
If your posts get no reactions or replies, it does not necessarily mean you are banned. It may mean that people just find your posts not worth reacting to, find discussing a particular topic with you counterproductive or simply do not want to talk to you in general.
> That is a good question, in fact I think at the moment I am shadow banned for the below posts
>
> lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/chess-engines-have-poisoned-online-chess?page=8
>
> Perhaps you will not be able to read them.
>
> But I could not tell you for sure because nobody has contacted me, the page has not been visited any longer, no more replies. I think if it is a shadow banned, they would take note of your ip address and mac adress to show you a different scenario of what really is going on, but everything is opaque and without transparency, this is one thing I demand in the post, transparency in general.
If your posts get no reactions or replies, it does not necessarily mean you are banned. It may mean that people just find your posts not worth reacting to, find discussing a particular topic with you counterproductive or simply do not want to talk to you in general.
@Cedur216 said in #6:
> People get chatbanned for consistently breaking chat etiquette, for serious abuse or for being a jerk. With the immensely populist attitude seen in the thread linked and in other places, I could guess you're not very far away from it.
>
> Lichess makes no bones about using shadowbans and its probably the lesser evil to reduce the amount of ban evasions this way. Also in the appeal they are certainly more transparent about chatban reasons than about cheating, because the former is less prone to unproductive debates and cheat detection methods must be kept secret for the sake of their protection
>
> by the way, when a thread has 50 or more posts, it's no longer bumped in the list, and once the few active people left are tired of it and call it a day, it's no surprise it gets no more replies
You speak about chat ban though there may be different kind of bans and levels, I do not recall the term shadow ban in lichess' TOS though it could be there as an update.
You say Lichess makes no bones about using shadow bans, you mean you are certain Lichess is using shadow bans, how are you so certain?
When you say "With the immensely populist attitude seen in the thread linked and in other places, I could guess you're not very far away from it." you are addresing who ? Which linked thread and what other places ? Also "Inmensely populist attitude" are you talking about this thread? In any case I do not believe that an "Inmensely populist attitude" is against lichess' TOS or even is a crime in any legislation on earth, what is against the law is to gag free speech and by threats of ban or any other action discipline and attempt to force people to have a unique speech and thinking, that is pure totalitarism, unacceptable in democratic societies to which lichess and the community belongs to. The "With me or against me" speech is the paradigm in lichess, is that what you mean? I have not seen that in the lichess TOS, in fact that was Germany 1940 and your own words... or correct me if I missed your point.
> People get chatbanned for consistently breaking chat etiquette, for serious abuse or for being a jerk. With the immensely populist attitude seen in the thread linked and in other places, I could guess you're not very far away from it.
>
> Lichess makes no bones about using shadowbans and its probably the lesser evil to reduce the amount of ban evasions this way. Also in the appeal they are certainly more transparent about chatban reasons than about cheating, because the former is less prone to unproductive debates and cheat detection methods must be kept secret for the sake of their protection
>
> by the way, when a thread has 50 or more posts, it's no longer bumped in the list, and once the few active people left are tired of it and call it a day, it's no surprise it gets no more replies
You speak about chat ban though there may be different kind of bans and levels, I do not recall the term shadow ban in lichess' TOS though it could be there as an update.
You say Lichess makes no bones about using shadow bans, you mean you are certain Lichess is using shadow bans, how are you so certain?
When you say "With the immensely populist attitude seen in the thread linked and in other places, I could guess you're not very far away from it." you are addresing who ? Which linked thread and what other places ? Also "Inmensely populist attitude" are you talking about this thread? In any case I do not believe that an "Inmensely populist attitude" is against lichess' TOS or even is a crime in any legislation on earth, what is against the law is to gag free speech and by threats of ban or any other action discipline and attempt to force people to have a unique speech and thinking, that is pure totalitarism, unacceptable in democratic societies to which lichess and the community belongs to. The "With me or against me" speech is the paradigm in lichess, is that what you mean? I have not seen that in the lichess TOS, in fact that was Germany 1940 and your own words... or correct me if I missed your point.
@ohcomeon_1 said in #7:
> If your posts get no reactions or replies, it does not necessarily mean you are banned. It may mean that people just find your posts not worth reacting to, find discussing a particular topic with you counterproductive or simply do not want to talk to you in general.
Yes, and it could also mean you were shadow banned, I agree.
> If your posts get no reactions or replies, it does not necessarily mean you are banned. It may mean that people just find your posts not worth reacting to, find discussing a particular topic with you counterproductive or simply do not want to talk to you in general.
Yes, and it could also mean you were shadow banned, I agree.
@Artem-Kozirev said in #9:
> Yes, and it could also mean you were shadow banned, I agree.
But you were clearly not, so in your case it must have been one of the reasons I mentioned.
> Yes, and it could also mean you were shadow banned, I agree.
But you were clearly not, so in your case it must have been one of the reasons I mentioned.
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