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Why do high rated players play the King's Indian Defense?

#11

[Event "Sunway Sitges Open TB"]
[Site "Sitges ESP"]
[Date "2023.12.22"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "1.2"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Brandon Jacobson"]
[Black "Ernesto J. Fernandez Guillen"]
[ECO "E97"]
[WhiteElo "2538"]
[BlackElo "2462"]
[PlyCount "?"]

1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.b4 Ne8 10.a4 h6 11.a5 f5 12.Nd2 f4 13.c5 Rf7 14.Bg4 h5 15.Bxc8 Rxc8 16.Ba3 Bf8 17.a6 b6 18.Nb5 Ra8 19.Rc1 Rh7 20.Nf3 Nc8 21.Bb2 g5 22.cxd6 cxd6 23.Nxe5 dxe5 24.Bxe5 Ncd6 25.Nd4 Bg7 26.Bxg7 Nxg7 27.e5 Nf7 28.Nc6 Qe8 29.Re1 g4 30.d6 Ne6 31.d7 Qf8 32.Qd5 Nfg5 33.Red1 Kh8 34.d8=Q Nxd8 35.Nxd8 Rb8 36.e6 Qf6 37.Qd4 Qxd4 38.Rxd4 f3 39.Nc6 Rc8 40.Rd6 b5 41.Re1 fxg2 42.Kxg2 Nf3 43.Re3 Nh4+ 44.Kf1 Nf5 45.Red3 Nxd6 46.Rxd6 Kg8 47.e7 Re8 48.Rd5 Kf7 49.Rxb5 Rh6 50.Rc5 Rd6 51.b5 h4 52.Rc4 h3 53.Rxg4 Rd1+ 54.Ke2 Rh1 55.Rf4+ Ke6 56.Rf8 Kd7 57.Kf3 Rxh2 58.b6 Rh1 59.Rxe8 h2 60.Rd8+ 1-0

https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=4452438

[Event "Sunway Sitges Open TB"] [Site "Sitges ESP"] [Date "2023.12.22"] [EventDate "?"] [Round "1.2"] [Result "1-0"] [White "Brandon Jacobson"] [Black "Ernesto J. Fernandez Guillen"] [ECO "E97"] [WhiteElo "2538"] [BlackElo "2462"] [PlyCount "?"] 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.Nf3 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.b4 Ne8 10.a4 h6 11.a5 f5 12.Nd2 f4 13.c5 Rf7 14.Bg4 h5 15.Bxc8 Rxc8 16.Ba3 Bf8 17.a6 b6 18.Nb5 Ra8 19.Rc1 Rh7 20.Nf3 Nc8 21.Bb2 g5 22.cxd6 cxd6 23.Nxe5 dxe5 24.Bxe5 Ncd6 25.Nd4 Bg7 26.Bxg7 Nxg7 27.e5 Nf7 28.Nc6 Qe8 29.Re1 g4 30.d6 Ne6 31.d7 Qf8 32.Qd5 Nfg5 33.Red1 Kh8 34.d8=Q Nxd8 35.Nxd8 Rb8 36.e6 Qf6 37.Qd4 Qxd4 38.Rxd4 f3 39.Nc6 Rc8 40.Rd6 b5 41.Re1 fxg2 42.Kxg2 Nf3 43.Re3 Nh4+ 44.Kf1 Nf5 45.Red3 Nxd6 46.Rxd6 Kg8 47.e7 Re8 48.Rd5 Kf7 49.Rxb5 Rh6 50.Rc5 Rd6 51.b5 h4 52.Rc4 h3 53.Rxg4 Rd1+ 54.Ke2 Rh1 55.Rf4+ Ke6 56.Rf8 Kd7 57.Kf3 Rxh2 58.b6 Rh1 59.Rxe8 h2 60.Rd8+ 1-0 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=4452438
#12

#7
how the bayonet attack refutes it
#10
"newer discoveries for Black"
I cited 2 ICCF correspondence games in #5, both white wins, rare in ICCF correspondence.

#7 how the bayonet attack refutes it #10 "newer discoveries for Black" I cited 2 ICCF correspondence games in #5, both white wins, rare in ICCF correspondence.
#13

Yes, I am with you on that one. KID probably not a very effective weapon in Correspondence chess. But refuted? I don 't think so.

Yes, I am with you on that one. KID probably not a very effective weapon in Correspondence chess. But refuted? I don 't think so.
#14

#13
Fischer and Kasparov used to play it regularly, but Fischer did not dare to play it against Botvinnik, Taimanov, Petrosian, or Spassky and Kasparov gave up on it after the loss to Kramnik.
Nowadays it is only seen on top level as a surprise.
Jones tried it with 7...Na6 in the London Chess Classic, but lost horribly
https://live.chessbase.com/en/Games?id=xtx-markets-lcc-elite-2025&w=Eljanov&b=Jones&mv=0&rnd=0&r2=0&isCordova=False

#13 Fischer and Kasparov used to play it regularly, but Fischer did not dare to play it against Botvinnik, Taimanov, Petrosian, or Spassky and Kasparov gave up on it after the loss to Kramnik. Nowadays it is only seen on top level as a surprise. Jones tried it with 7...Na6 in the London Chess Classic, but lost horribly https://live.chessbase.com/en/Games?id=xtx-markets-lcc-elite-2025&w=Eljanov&b=Jones&mv=0&rnd=0&r2=0&isCordova=False
#15

@tpr said in #14:

#13
Fischer and Kasparov used to play it regularly, but Fischer did not dare to play it against Botvinnik, Taimanov, Petrosian, or Spassky and Kasparov gave up on it after the loss to Kramnik.

Fischer played Botvinnik only once (a Gruenfeld draw that is deeply annotated in My 60 Memorable Games)
Fischer played the King's Indian Classical Variation in his first two Blacks in the candidates match against Taimanov. Two wins and in the final black he switched to the Gruenfeld and also won after a horrible blunder by Taimanov. A d4 opening featured once in the candidates semifinal against Larsen - another King's Indian Classical that he won.
Fischer played the King's Indian against Petrosian in the last round at Santa Monica 1966. He needed a win to catch up with Spassky but the game was drawn.
Fischer did not play the King's Indian in the 1972 world championship against Spassky but it featured in the return match twenty years later.

Fischer's peak years are considered to be 1970-1972 and in that period his score with the King's Indian was five wins (two against Taimanov and one against Larsen, Gligoric, Ghitescu) and two draws (Uhlmann and Gheorghiu) - all GMs except for Ghitescu who later received the honorary title.
He probably considered 1 d4 second rate compared to 1 e4 and felt it could be met by a number of ways. The King's Indian, of course, but Fischer also played the Gruenfeld, Benoni, Nimzoindian and Queen's Gambit Declined. A much broader repertoire than against 1 e4 where he overwhelmingly preferred the Sicilian with a few examples of the Ruy Lopez and Alekhine.

@tpr said in #14: > #13 > Fischer and Kasparov used to play it regularly, but Fischer did not dare to play it against Botvinnik, Taimanov, Petrosian, or Spassky and Kasparov gave up on it after the loss to Kramnik. Fischer played Botvinnik only once (a Gruenfeld draw that is deeply annotated in My 60 Memorable Games) Fischer played the King's Indian Classical Variation in his first two Blacks in the candidates match against Taimanov. Two wins and in the final black he switched to the Gruenfeld and also won after a horrible blunder by Taimanov. A d4 opening featured once in the candidates semifinal against Larsen - another King's Indian Classical that he won. Fischer played the King's Indian against Petrosian in the last round at Santa Monica 1966. He needed a win to catch up with Spassky but the game was drawn. Fischer did not play the King's Indian in the 1972 world championship against Spassky but it featured in the return match twenty years later. Fischer's peak years are considered to be 1970-1972 and in that period his score with the King's Indian was five wins (two against Taimanov and one against Larsen, Gligoric, Ghitescu) and two draws (Uhlmann and Gheorghiu) - all GMs except for Ghitescu who later received the honorary title. He probably considered 1 d4 second rate compared to 1 e4 and felt it could be met by a number of ways. The King's Indian, of course, but Fischer also played the Gruenfeld, Benoni, Nimzoindian and Queen's Gambit Declined. A much broader repertoire than against 1 e4 where he overwhelmingly preferred the Sicilian with a few examples of the Ruy Lopez and Alekhine.
#16

#15
"Fischer played Botvinnik only once (a Gruenfeld draw that is deeply annotated in My 60 Memorable Games)"

  • Yes: 'I could see by the glint in his eye that he had come well armed for my King's Indian.' so Fischer did not dare.

"Fischer played the King's Indian Classical Variation in his first two Blacks in the candidates match against Taimanov."

  • Yes, I stand corrected. Taimanov played the subpar 9 Bd2.

"He also played the King's Indian once in the candidates semifinal against Larsen"

  • Fischer feared the Soviet preparation, not Larsen's.

"Fischer did not play the King's Indian in the 1972 world championship against Spassky"

  • He was afraid of Spassky being prepared by Geller, a connoisseur of the King's Indian.

"it featured in the return match twenty years later"

  • Yes: 5 times King's Indian Sämisch Variation, along with 5 Queen's Gambit Accepted, 1 Nimzovich Indian Defense, 1 Benoni, 1 Benkö Gambit

"Fischer claimed 1 e4 was 'best by test'" * Yes

"probably felt 1 d4 was second rate" * He called it 'dull & drawish' and he boasted 'I have never opened 1 d4 on principle', though against Spassky he played 1 c4 and transposed to d4 openings.

"The King's Indian, of course, but he also played the Gruenfeld, Benoni, Nimzoindian, Queen's Gambit Declined."

  • He liked the King's Indian and affectionately called it 'my' King's Indian, but apparently he lost trust in it.

"against 1 e4 when he overwhelmingly preferred the Sicilian"

  • The same as Kasparov: both stayed true to the Najdorf Sicilian, but gave up on the King's Indian Defense.

"the Ruy Lopez" * 7 games in his youth only: 1960-1962
"Alekhine." 7 games only, also 1 Pirc. That is mostly for surprise value and match tactics to dodge Soviet preparation.

#15 "Fischer played Botvinnik only once (a Gruenfeld draw that is deeply annotated in My 60 Memorable Games)" * Yes: 'I could see by the glint in his eye that he had come well armed for my King's Indian.' so Fischer did not dare. "Fischer played the King's Indian Classical Variation in his first two Blacks in the candidates match against Taimanov." * Yes, I stand corrected. Taimanov played the subpar 9 Bd2. "He also played the King's Indian once in the candidates semifinal against Larsen" * Fischer feared the Soviet preparation, not Larsen's. "Fischer did not play the King's Indian in the 1972 world championship against Spassky" * He was afraid of Spassky being prepared by Geller, a connoisseur of the King's Indian. "it featured in the return match twenty years later" * Yes: 5 times King's Indian Sämisch Variation, along with 5 Queen's Gambit Accepted, 1 Nimzovich Indian Defense, 1 Benoni, 1 Benkö Gambit "Fischer claimed 1 e4 was 'best by test'" * Yes "probably felt 1 d4 was second rate" * He called it 'dull & drawish' and he boasted 'I have never opened 1 d4 on principle', though against Spassky he played 1 c4 and transposed to d4 openings. "The King's Indian, of course, but he also played the Gruenfeld, Benoni, Nimzoindian, Queen's Gambit Declined." * He liked the King's Indian and affectionately called it 'my' King's Indian, but apparently he lost trust in it. "against 1 e4 when he overwhelmingly preferred the Sicilian" * The same as Kasparov: both stayed true to the Najdorf Sicilian, but gave up on the King's Indian Defense. "the Ruy Lopez" * 7 games in his youth only: 1960-1962 "Alekhine." 7 games only, also 1 Pirc. That is mostly for surprise value and match tactics to dodge Soviet preparation.
#17

@Goatmaan said in #1:

Whenever I play high rated players, they always seem to play the King's Indian? Can someone please tell me why?

Can we get more context? You're probably not talking about games here on lichess - where you have played only 24 games - with no King's Indian at all.

Also the rating range would be useful to know. With 1427? rapid rating, I would suspect your "higher rated" opponents are just playing what they usually play.

Browsing through the answers, I don't think any of these "KID is refuted" and citing top GM players and correspondence games make any sense in that context.

@Goatmaan said in #1: > Whenever I play high rated players, they always seem to play the King's Indian? Can someone please tell me why? Can we get more context? You're probably not talking about games here on lichess - where you have played only 24 games - with no King's Indian at all. Also the rating range would be useful to know. With 1427? rapid rating, I would suspect your "higher rated" opponents are just playing what they usually play. Browsing through the answers, I don't think any of these "KID is refuted" and citing top GM players and correspondence games make *any* sense in that context.
#18

"... Now jump ahead sixty years to 2020. Remarkably, much of Fischer’s repertoire is still in vogue at the top level. ...
In a general sense, what I think has changed the most is a greater appreciation of space. Strong players were much more likely to concede a space advantage in return for vague attacking chances or some small positional or developmental factor. The King’s Indian was a major top level defense, now it is rarely seen. I think this is primarily a result of the engines loving space. They will often say that a significant space advantage is worth a pawn, a judgment which few grandmasters would have made in my youth. Now the computers have convinced them that space is a big deal. ...
The consequence of this is that many defenses formerly considered to be playable, if slightly worse for Black, are now viewed as practically, if not theoretically, losing to a well prepared opponent. ..." - GM Larry Kaufman
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9092.pdf
@nadjarostowa said (to Goatmaan) in #17:

... With 1427? rapid rating, I would suspect your "higher rated" opponents are just playing what they usually play.
Browsing through the answers, I don't think any of these "KID is refuted" and citing top GM players and correspondence games make any sense in that context.

I think that it is understandable if someone is curious about what has been successful against the King's Indian in recent years. Some might wonder about those GM Kotronias books from about a decade ago.
On the other hand, I do not know that very many lichess games are likely to reach the position after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 O-O 6 Be2 e5 7 O-O Nc6 8 d5 Ne7 9 b4 Ne8 or whatever. With regard to the original question about the "high rated players", mentioned in #1, my guess is that the primary factor has been things like:

"... We've briefly touched on the King's Indian or Pirc Defense, which looks like this: [position after 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Bf4 O-O]
You can play this against literally any of White's main openings. Black puts a pawn on d6, pushes the g pawn to g6, puts the bishop on g7, moves the knight to f6, and castles. ...
... Setup-based defenses are a fantastic way to cut back on study time and have consistent positions in the early stage of the game. ..." - How to Win at Chess (2023) by IM Levy Rozman

"... Now jump ahead sixty years to 2020. Remarkably, much of Fischer’s repertoire is still in vogue at the top level. ... In a general sense, what I think has changed the most is a greater appreciation of space. Strong players were much more likely to concede a space advantage in return for vague attacking chances or some small positional or developmental factor. The King’s Indian was a major top level defense, now it is rarely seen. I think this is primarily a result of the engines loving space. They will often say that a significant space advantage is worth a pawn, a judgment which few grandmasters would have made in my youth. Now the computers have convinced them that space is a big deal. ... The consequence of this is that many defenses formerly considered to be playable, if slightly worse for Black, are now viewed as practically, if not theoretically, losing to a well prepared opponent. ..." - GM Larry Kaufman https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/9092.pdf @nadjarostowa said (to Goatmaan) in #17: > ... With 1427? rapid rating, I would suspect your "higher rated" opponents are just playing what they usually play. > Browsing through the answers, I don't think any of these "KID is refuted" and citing top GM players and correspondence games make *any* sense in that context. I think that it is understandable if someone is curious about what has been successful against the King's Indian in recent years. Some might wonder about those GM Kotronias books from about a decade ago. On the other hand, I do not know that very many lichess games are likely to reach the position after 1 d4 Nf6 2 c4 g6 3 Nc3 Bg7 4 e4 d6 5 Nf3 O-O 6 Be2 e5 7 O-O Nc6 8 d5 Ne7 9 b4 Ne8 or whatever. With regard to the original question about the "high rated players", mentioned in #1, my guess is that the primary factor has been things like: "... We've briefly touched on the King's Indian or Pirc Defense, which looks like this: [position after 1 e4 d6 2 d4 Nf6 3 Nc3 g6 4 Nf3 Bg7 5 Bf4 O-O] You can play this against literally any of White's main openings. Black puts a pawn on d6, pushes the g pawn to g6, puts the bishop on g7, moves the knight to f6, and castles. ... ... Setup-based defenses are a fantastic way to cut back on study time and have consistent positions in the early stage of the game. ..." - How to Win at Chess (2023) by IM Levy Rozman
#19

Its definitely heavily used now, I learned it when Kasparov complimented Nakamura for integrating it to his games. Its my most favorite opening.

Its definitely heavily used now, I learned it when Kasparov complimented Nakamura for integrating it to his games. Its my most favorite opening.
#20

[Event "Esports World Cup 2025"]
[Site "Riyadh KSA"]
[Date "2025.07.31"]
[EventDate "?"]
[Round "2.1.7"]
[Result "1-0"]
[White "Magnus Carlsen"]
[Black "Hikaru Nakamura"]
[ECO "E97"]
[WhiteElo "2839"]
[BlackElo "2807"]
[PlyCount "?"]

1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.d4 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.b4 a5 10.bxa5 c5 11.a4 Rxa5 12.Re1 Ne8 13.Ra3 f5 14.Ng5 Nc7 15.Bd2 h6 16.Nf3 Ra6 17.exf5 Nxf5 18.Bd3 Ne8 19.h3 Bd7 20.Ne4 Nf6 21.Qc2 Nxe4 22.Bxe4 Qf6 23.Bc3 g5 24.Rb1 b6 25.Nh2 Rfa8 26.Ng4 Qf8 27.Qd3 Nd4 28.Ne3 Rxa4 29.Rxa4 Rxa4 30.Rxb6 Ra3 31.Kf1 Ra2 32.Nd1 Ba4 33.Qb1 Bxd1 34.Qxa2 Qf4 35.Rb8+ Bf8 36.Qb1 Be2+ 37.Kg1 Bxc4 38.Bxd4 exd4 39.Bh7+ Kh8 40.Bf5 Kg8 41.g3 Qf3 42.Be6+ Kh8 43.Qg6 1-0
https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=4564098
"... time has been rather cruel to the King's Indian. ... the King's Indian is now quite rare in top-level chess and is even considered a little suspect. That is not to say it is unplayable, or that there aren't certain lines where Black can seek to hold a solid position. But it is no longer the swashbuckling defence of old, where Black could fight uncompromisingly for victory. ..." - Practical Chess Openings (2025) by GM Martyn Kravtsiv
https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/89017.pdf

[Event "Esports World Cup 2025"] [Site "Riyadh KSA"] [Date "2025.07.31"] [EventDate "?"] [Round "2.1.7"] [Result "1-0"] [White "Magnus Carlsen"] [Black "Hikaru Nakamura"] [ECO "E97"] [WhiteElo "2839"] [BlackElo "2807"] [PlyCount "?"] 1.Nf3 Nf6 2.c4 g6 3.Nc3 Bg7 4.e4 d6 5.d4 O-O 6.Be2 e5 7.O-O Nc6 8.d5 Ne7 9.b4 a5 10.bxa5 c5 11.a4 Rxa5 12.Re1 Ne8 13.Ra3 f5 14.Ng5 Nc7 15.Bd2 h6 16.Nf3 Ra6 17.exf5 Nxf5 18.Bd3 Ne8 19.h3 Bd7 20.Ne4 Nf6 21.Qc2 Nxe4 22.Bxe4 Qf6 23.Bc3 g5 24.Rb1 b6 25.Nh2 Rfa8 26.Ng4 Qf8 27.Qd3 Nd4 28.Ne3 Rxa4 29.Rxa4 Rxa4 30.Rxb6 Ra3 31.Kf1 Ra2 32.Nd1 Ba4 33.Qb1 Bxd1 34.Qxa2 Qf4 35.Rb8+ Bf8 36.Qb1 Be2+ 37.Kg1 Bxc4 38.Bxd4 exd4 39.Bh7+ Kh8 40.Bf5 Kg8 41.g3 Qf3 42.Be6+ Kh8 43.Qg6 1-0 https://www.365chess.com/game.php?gid=4564098 "... time has been rather cruel to the King's Indian. ... the King's Indian is now quite rare in top-level chess and is even considered a little suspect. That is not to say it is unplayable, or that there aren't certain lines where Black can seek to hold a solid position. But it is no longer the swashbuckling defence of old, where Black could fight uncompromisingly for victory. ..." - Practical Chess Openings (2025) by GM Martyn Kravtsiv https://www.newinchess.com/media/wysiwyg/product_pdf/89017.pdf