Breaking the Silence

@somethingpretentious said in #711:
> So you don't read the article and you also forget that we already discussed this point exactly. lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/blog-ZNTniBEAACEAJZTn?page=66#660 I'm not discussing this with you further as you are clearly not interested in the truth, just in arguing.

Yes, we discussed it. And you still fail (or refuse) to understant that we are dealing with a case permeated by uncertainty, based on allegations and denials, based on DISPUTED facts and timelines.

But your conclusion is correct: given the above, any further conversation with you on this is pointless.

@somethingpretentious

> Edit: unless you mean you just don't believe the article is evidence? Obviously that would be unprofessional of Lichess to out a source.

Of course I don't believe the article to be evidence. Duh! It's an op-ed by Lichess justifying a decision they've made. That's all.

For an alleged incident: evidence would be a video of the incident or some testimony from an independent observer (not he, not she; someone else). Or even better, the conclusion of a police investigation or a court sentence.

For the "slow reaction" and "lack of accountability" by USCF: evidence would be an email sent by any the women to USCF prior to 2020, proving that she indeed notified them and they basically told her to go-fly-a-kite.

Do we have any of these? Nope. And yet we claim to know "how things really happened"...

Lichess is becoming serious politicised. A few months ago, there was a post supporting LGBTQ, then introducing controversial flags for the Republic of Artsakh and now breaking ties with USCC over *alleged* unaccountability for sexual misconduct.

I can't see any proof that is presented of Ramirez' alleged sexual assault. There are accounts only. The timeline itself shows serious doubt. First it is of note that a lot of the timeline is about his work, unrelated to alleged sexual offences, perhaps the author is trying to 'place' him at certain areas: -

2011 (1st alleged sexual assault of Shahade)
2014 (2nd alleged sexual assault of Shahade) -- it is astonishing that you would put yourself in this position for a second time, moving on...

In 2014, Claire Grothe also alleges sexual misconduct. But it seems from this quick google search that the two women worked together very closely saintlouischessclub.org/blog/shahade-brings-queen-power-saint-louis

Then no women are not named..

In 2020, it seems to appear that Shahade's overarching allegation of general misconduct towards women did not identify by name any others. (Which is why her *general* complaint was not investigated - this has to be reasonable as to take it further the women would need to be asked questions.)

It goes on...

In no way do I want to detract from the terrible woes that women face when men assault them. However, there is a burden of proof for a reason. Who knows if Shahade has a vendetta vs. Ramirez, for example. You simply do not know so her allegations should be sent to the police.

I think Lichess, should be very careful to play judge, jury and executioner. It does not have evidence, and there has been no inquiry of Ramirez. What Lichess is doing is dangerous for individual freedom.

@TheEld said in #717:

> I think Lichess, should be very careful to play judge, jury and executioner. It does not have evidence, and there has been no inquiry of Ramirez. What Lichess is doing is dangerous for individual freedom.

It is surprising that a legal professional would use the phrase "play judge, jury, and executioner" here when this is clearly not only a gross overstatement of what is happening but factually (in legal terms) false.

Furthermore, it is normal and accepted practice for organizations to have standards, terms of service, and rules of conduct to which the users and members agree to abide and are expected to comply. These organizations therefore reserve the right to sanction any individual or other organization they believe are in violation. Furthermore organizations are not required to continue to support or promote other organizations or individuals whom they believe are not behaving or operating compatibly with their own organizations' standards. Sanctioned parties may have the right to appeal.

But as a legal professional, I am sure you know this even better than I do.

@TheEld said in #717:

>
> 2011 (1st alleged sexual assault of Shahade)
> 2014 (2nd alleged sexual assault of Shahade) -- it is astonishing that you would put yourself in this position for a second time, moving on...
>

It is not unusual for women (or other people who find themselves victims of sexual misconduct or assault) to refrain from reporting an incident as these kinds of incidents are all too common esp for women. It is also common for such reports to not only to NOT be taken seriously but there is a real potential for backlash, including doxing. Such a person may hope that the incident was a one-off, a misunderstanding, and may prefer to doubt themselves than to recognize overt maliciousness. It is unreasonable to expect a person in this situation to completely avoid any spaces where they just might encounter the perpetrator again, such as a workplace, school, or chess event.

When these incidents happen repeatedly (including learning about other people having the same issues w/ the same perpetrator), then it becomes more obvious to an individual victim that there really is a problem. They may then report their experiences with more confidence that they have a legitimate complaint and that it should (hopefully) be taken more seriously. The motive for such reporting isn't punitive so much as it is maintaining one's (and others') right to participate in events and spaces with a reasonable expectation of safety.

Thank you for your time.

I applaud your ideals but think you need to remain neutral and keep it about chess. Its not our place to be a judge or jury and make a stand on anyone's actions, especially if the law of the land hasn't yet agreed with you. We are not the police, judges, or lawmakers, and even if we hate things our support should not be done in a way that influences chess. Go and support them away from the chess venues. Allegations certainly wouldn't be enough to make me personally make such statements and even if there was a conviction I wouldn't take my opinions to the chess community in such a way. It has nothing to do with chess. If the goal is to support women, then punishing someone doesn't need to be a part of that.

@qu0thraven regarding #719:

And yet, despite all that (and more), there is still no police report. From *anyone* involved. Care to explain how one could hope to "minimize backlash" and to achieve "reasonable safety" better / more efficiently by going to Twitter and/or the press instead of going to police?

@Pashut said in #715:
> Yes, we discussed it. And you still fail (or refuse) to understand that we are dealing with a case permeated by uncertainty, based on allegations and denials, based on DISPUTED facts and timelines.

@Pashut, you are right that there are uncertainties involved here and we are discussing disputed facts. Therefore, just as Lichess' blog or the testimonials mentioned cannot be used as definitive proof for the allegations, similarly the US Chess statement cannot be used for disproving the allegations either :)

Since we found some common ground earlier, I want to ask you some questions:

1. Do you agree that in matters of sexual allegations, people doubt the validity of these allegations much more when compared to non-sexual allegations?

2. If the answer to the previous question is yes, do you think this is justified?

3. What would you do if you got assaulted sexually and there was no evidence? It's a rhetorical question, we both know that you will go to the police and it's the right thing to do. I know I will too. The question is, can you accept and understand how for most women it would be very difficult and that's why most sexual assaults are in fact not reported.

4. If US chess were in fact negligent, suppose the accusations against them are true. What do you think would their statement look like in that case?

@TheEld said in #717:
> 2011 (1st alleged sexual assault of Shahade)
> 2014 (2nd alleged sexual assault of Shahade) -- it is astonishing that you would put yourself in this position for a second time, moving on...

...

> In no way do I want to detract from the terrible woes that women face when men assault them.

Don't you think that these two statements are contradictory? Why would you use phrases like "it is astonishing that you would put yourself in this position for a second time, moving on"? That is just plain disrespectful and insensitive toward victims. Do you think people deliberately place themselves in such positions or part of the fault lies on themselves?

@Pashut said in #721:
> @qu0thraven regarding #719:
>
> And yet, despite all that (and more), there is still no police report. From *anyone* involved. Care to explain how one could hope to "minimize backlash" and to achieve "reasonable safety" better / more efficiently by going to Twitter and/or the press instead of going to police?

Let's say the accusers filed policed complaints and it is under investigation. Then what? For the time being, these will still be allegations won't they?

There could be various reasons for not going to the police, I explained some in my earlier posts. It's not how things should be, but sadly it is. Sadly, pressure from social media or the press is often more effective. There is the danger of abusing this system and creating a toxic culture, which happens sometimes. I won't be denying it. But there also exists a reason why sometimes victims turn to them because the law and society overall are not supportive. I am not saying I'm in favor of this, but just trying to point out the reality.

Ending with a quote from one of the alleged victims in the blog:

> "I do not agree that US Chess was "timely and appropriate" in regards to reports about Ramirez's conduct. I submitted the Safe Play Complaint form with details of sexual abuse prior to an event I was attending where I knew [Ramirez] would be present. The receipt of my report was immediately acknowledged. However, I was not informed of an investigation until a month after my official report and after the event had passed. No effort was made by US Chess to ensure my safety during the event, where several US Chess officials and representatives were present. After my interview, I was told that the information would be reviewed at the next board meeting, and I would be informed of the results. I never heard back. During this time, Ramirez was allowed to participate in US Chess events and coach various female-only teams. Only when Jennifer Shahade raised the issue publicly several months later did anything concrete happen."