Draw for three repetitions but there is no repetition

It's not really a problem to ask in the forums, but it is kind of funny when beginners assume that a system that has more than 7 billion chess games played on it by hundreds of thousands of players, including world elite, would not have the rules of chess implemented correctly, instead of considering that they misunderstood the rules. :-)

Happens quite frequently though, mostly with en passant, castling, and 3-fold repetition.

spizzi77

#12

@nadjarostowa said in #11:

It's not really a problem to ask in the forums, but it is kind of funny when beginners assume that a system that has more than 7 billion chess games played on it by hundreds of thousands of players, including world elite, would not have the rules of chess implemented correctly, instead of considering that they misunderstood the rules. :-)

Happens quite frequently though, mostly with en passant, castling, and 3-fold repetition.

To tell the truth I'm not a beginner..Ciao

@nadjarostowa said in #11: > It's not really a problem to ask in the forums, but it is kind of funny when beginners assume that a system that has more than 7 billion chess games played on it by hundreds of thousands of players, including world elite, would not have the rules of chess implemented correctly, instead of considering that they misunderstood the rules. :-) > > Happens quite frequently though, mostly with en passant, castling, and 3-fold repetition. To tell the truth I'm not a beginner..Ciao

nadjarostowa

#13

@spizzi77 said in #12:

To tell the truth I'm not a beginner..Ciao

Sorry for assuming that wrongly, bases on your low number of games and rating.

But having the rules wrong is really no big deal, even Korchnoi, one of the greatest players, once had to ask the arbiter about the castling rule. It's kind of baffling how most players spend tens of hours each month playing the game, but never took the time to go over the rules. I guess it's the thing where you naturally grow into something and pick up enough along the way to engage with it reasonably well, giving a wrong sense of complete knowledge.

And then, some people were simply taught wrong things, even by other presumably experienced players, or incorrect or incomplete game manuals.

@spizzi77 said in #12: > To tell the truth I'm not a beginner..Ciao Sorry for assuming that wrongly, bases on your low number of games and rating. But having the rules wrong is really no big deal, even Korchnoi, one of the greatest players, once had to ask the arbiter about the castling rule. It's kind of baffling how most players spend tens of hours each month playing the game, but never took the time to go over the rules. I guess it's the thing where you naturally grow into something and pick up enough along the way to engage with it reasonably well, giving a wrong sense of complete knowledge. And then, some people were simply taught wrong things, even by other presumably experienced players, or incorrect or incomplete game manuals.

spizzi77

#14

@nadjarostowa said in #13:

But having the rules wrong is really no big deal, even Korchnoi, one of the greatest players, once had to ask the arbiter about the castling rule. It's kind of baffling how most players spend tens of hours each month playing the game, but never took the time to go over the rules. I guess it's the thing where you naturally grow into something and pick up enough along the way to engage with it reasonably well, giving a wrong sense of complete knowledge.

Well for example if I had to play 960 OTB chess I would have to ask for the castling rules. LOL

@nadjarostowa said in #13: > But having the rules wrong is really no big deal, even Korchnoi, one of the greatest players, once had to ask the arbiter about the castling rule. It's kind of baffling how most players spend tens of hours each month playing the game, but never took the time to go over the rules. I guess it's the thing where you naturally grow into something and pick up enough along the way to engage with it reasonably well, giving a wrong sense of complete knowledge. Well for example if I had to play 960 OTB chess I would have to ask for the castling rules. LOL

mcgoves

#15

@spizzi77 said in #8:

I'm used to thinking about the repetition in the next move, but in this case the first repetition is on the 40th move, then the second repetition on the 42nd, and finally the 44th move.

It's worth noting that two adjacent positions must be different (otherwise, neither side moved anything). So the nearest a repetition can be is 2 moved away. In fact, your example (2 moves, then another 2 moves) is by far the most common pattern.

@spizzi77 said in #8: > I'm used to thinking about the repetition in the next move, but in this case the first repetition is on the 40th move, then the second repetition on the 42nd, and finally the 44th move. It's worth noting that two adjacent positions **must** be different (otherwise, neither side moved anything). So the nearest a repetition can be is 2 moved away. In fact, your example (2 moves, then another 2 moves) is by far the most common pattern.

spizzi77

#16

@mcgoves said in #15:

I'm used to thinking about the repetition in the next move, but in this case the first repetition is on the 40th move, then the second repetition on the 42nd, and finally the 44th move.

It's worth noting that two adjacent positions must be different (otherwise, neither side moved anything). So the nearest a repetition can be is 2 moved away. In fact, your example (2 moves, then another 2 moves) is by far the most common pattern.

Hi, well, at this point i have a doubt, that was the reason oif the topic, in this case the repetition of the position is every 2 moves, ok, but how are the rules? For example a repetition of position at 5/10/15 moves is always draw? Or the position rules restart after the 3/4 move?
Sincerely this is interesting....

@mcgoves said in #15: > > I'm used to thinking about the repetition in the next move, but in this case the first repetition is on the 40th move, then the second repetition on the 42nd, and finally the 44th move. > > It's worth noting that two adjacent positions **must** be different (otherwise, neither side moved anything). So the nearest a repetition can be is 2 moved away. In fact, your example (2 moves, then another 2 moves) is by far the most common pattern. Hi, well, at this point i have a doubt, that was the reason oif the topic, in this case the repetition of the position is every 2 moves, ok, but how are the rules? For example a repetition of position at 5/10/15 moves is always draw? Or the position rules restart after the 3/4 move? Sincerely this is interesting....

CG314

#17

If an IDENTICAL position occurs 3 times at any point during the game, then it is a 3 fold repetition. It could be on moves 21, 43, and 82... does nit matter.

Identical means:

All pieces on the same square
Same player to move
All same moves are legal

(So if the first time, a casteling or en passent was legal, and the second time its note, then those positions are not identical).

If an IDENTICAL position occurs 3 times at any point during the game, then it is a 3 fold repetition. It could be on moves 21, 43, and 82... does nit matter. Identical means: All pieces on the same square Same player to move All same moves are legal (So if the first time, a casteling or en passent was legal, and the second time its note, then those positions are not identical).

spizzi77

#18

@CG314 said in #17:

If an IDENTICAL position occurs 3 times at any point during the game, then it is a 3 fold repetition. It could be on moves 21, 43, and 82... does nit matter.

Identical means:

All pieces on the same square
Same player to move
All same moves are legal

(So if the first time, a casteling or en passent was legal, and the second time its note, then those positions are not identical).

Wow, so, regardless of move number, if a position occurs three times in a row throughout the game, can the opponent claim a draw?
I'd never noticed this before. I admit I was ignorant of this rule. I've always viewed the repetition of moves as consecutive moves. Learning that if the same position occurs throughout an entire game, a draw can be claimed is a new understanding.
That's why I think it's right to share: chess never ends.

@CG314 said in #17: > If an IDENTICAL position occurs 3 times at any point during the game, then it is a 3 fold repetition. It could be on moves 21, 43, and 82... does nit matter. > > Identical means: > > All pieces on the same square > Same player to move > All same moves are legal > > (So if the first time, a casteling or en passent was legal, and the second time its note, then those positions are not identical). Wow, so, regardless of move number, if a position occurs three times in a row throughout the game, can the opponent claim a draw? I'd never noticed this before. I admit I was ignorant of this rule. I've always viewed the repetition of moves as consecutive moves. Learning that if the same position occurs throughout an entire game, a draw can be claimed is a new understanding. That's why I think it's right to share: chess never ends.

mcgoves

#19

Take this thread as motivation to finally read the rule book cover-to-cover.

mkubecek

#20

9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by a player having the move, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves):

9.2.1 is about to appear, if he/she first indicates his/her move, which cannot be changed, by writing it on the paper scoresheet or entering it on the electronic scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his/her intention to make this move, or

9.2.2 has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move.

9.2.3 Positions are considered the same if and only if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Thus positions are not the same if:

9.2.3.1 at the start of the sequence a pawn could have been captured en passant.

9.2.3.2 a king had castling rights with a rook that has not been moved, but forfeited these after moving. The castling rights are lost only after the king or rook is moved.

When playing online, the procedure for claiming a threefold repetition is simpler: you offer a draw before your move and if you move causes the third occurence of the position, it is interpreted as a clain. In practice, in most games at least one of the players has automatic claim enabled so that the draw is claimed automatically once a position appears for the third time.

Another article worth noting is

9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn:

9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times.

In other words, once the same position appears for the fifth time in the same game, the game ends in a draw even if neither player claims it.

(The quotes are from FIDE Laws of Chess)

> 9.2 The game is drawn, upon a correct claim by a player having the move, when the same position for at least the third time (not necessarily by a repetition of moves): > > 9.2.1 is about to appear, if he/she first indicates his/her move, which cannot be changed, by writing it on the paper scoresheet or entering it on the electronic scoresheet and declares to the arbiter his/her intention to make this move, or > > 9.2.2 has just appeared, and the player claiming the draw has the move. > > 9.2.3 Positions are considered the same if and only if the same player has the move, pieces of the same kind and colour occupy the same squares and the possible moves of all the pieces of both players are the same. Thus positions are not the same if: > > 9.2.3.1 at the start of the sequence a pawn could have been captured en passant. > > 9.2.3.2 a king had castling rights with a rook that has not been moved, but forfeited these after moving. The castling rights are lost only after the king or rook is moved. When playing online, the procedure for claiming a threefold repetition is simpler: you offer a draw before your move and if you move causes the third occurence of the position, it is interpreted as a clain. In practice, in most games at least one of the players has automatic claim enabled so that the draw is claimed automatically once a position appears for the third time. Another article worth noting is > 9.6 If one or both of the following occur(s) then the game is drawn: > > 9.6.1 the same position has appeared, as in 9.2.2 at least five times. In other words, once the same position appears for the fifth time in the same game, the game ends in a draw even if neither player claims it. (The quotes are from [FIDE Laws of Chess](https://handbook.fide.com/chapter/E012023))