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Parsing Chess Data to Discover Mating Patterns

#11

@secondtry said in #10:

@dirkster99
Are you aware that the set also includes puzzles which in the game ended as "Kill Box" mate but are not forced "Kill Box" mates?

e.g. lichess.org/training/rHeOc
is only a "Kill Box" mate if Black plays along, but Black could also play 22. .. Qxe8 instead.
White would of course still win with 23. Qg7#

Just wondering if you aimed for a set of pure puzzles or if such puzzles are ok for you too

Puzzles exist to learn and practice patterns. In this case, you have the threat of a Kill Box mate on the board, and in the worst case, that leads to you winning material or even another kind of checkmate. I suppose it can also lead to some other advantage if the opponent doesn't play along, but most of the time it's either checkmate or winning material.

@secondtry said in #10: > @dirkster99 > Are you aware that the set also includes puzzles which in the game ended as "Kill Box" mate but are not forced "Kill Box" mates? > > e.g. lichess.org/training/rHeOc > is only a "Kill Box" mate if Black plays along, but Black could also play 22. .. Qxe8 instead. > White would of course still win with 23. Qg7# > > Just wondering if you aimed for a set of pure puzzles or if such puzzles are ok for you too Puzzles exist to learn and practice patterns. In this case, you have the threat of a Kill Box mate on the board, and in the worst case, that leads to you winning material or even another kind of checkmate. I suppose it can also lead to some other advantage if the opponent doesn't play along, but most of the time it's either checkmate or winning material.
#12

@secondtry

I am aware of the fact that some puzzles have multiple solutions. I noticed that especially with the kill box and triangle matting patterns. But I would still like to keep these, because there not entirely wrong, just have the pattern as an optional solution. So, its not entirely wrong, but not entirely right either, I know.

But I'd rather be applied here and reflect the reality rather than trying something very artificially sanitized. And I think the reader is always invited to use his own head as you demonstrated in this case :-)

@secondtry I am aware of the fact that some puzzles have multiple solutions. I noticed that especially with the kill box and triangle matting patterns. But I would still like to keep these, because there not entirely wrong, just have the pattern as an optional solution. So, its not entirely wrong, but not entirely right either, I know. But I'd rather be applied here and reflect the reality rather than trying something very artificially sanitized. And I think the reader is always invited to use his own head as you demonstrated in this case :-)
#13

I only say that today. very well done all of it. Good work and good sharing of the tools.. I was wondering if somewhere in the blog you mention the existing automatic tagging code that lichess can already apply.

I would have questions about the relation between automatic tagging on lichess mating patterns, the lichess human defintions, and the lichess feedback thematic voting system. Did you get some exposure to that for the previously exiting mating themes?

Otherwise. I will keep your shared links on my todo. I have also looking at your studies.. thanks. simply many thanks.

Aslo very interesting this lichess cooperation sharing. Lucky you can write code and blog and be expressive all at the same time, and happen to focus on something like that which is a tight area of chess theory.

I only say that today. very well done all of it. Good work and good sharing of the tools.. I was wondering if somewhere in the blog you mention the existing automatic tagging code that lichess can already apply. I would have questions about the relation between automatic tagging on lichess mating patterns, the lichess human defintions, and the lichess feedback thematic voting system. Did you get some exposure to that for the previously exiting mating themes? Otherwise. I will keep your shared links on my todo. I have also looking at your studies.. thanks. simply many thanks. Aslo very interesting this lichess cooperation sharing. Lucky you can write code and blog and be expressive all at the same time, and happen to focus on something like that which is a tight area of chess theory.
#14

Also I kind of see a distinction between defining a static mate, and giving that a name (calling that a name itself) and the dynamic patterns to get to some (also static definable, but not named for if not obtained by the dynamic pattern, it would be not worth calling it anything, this is all about human subjectivity and perhaps frequency of experience of level of difficulty, IDK the historical logic or epistemology of that naming knowledge, or even the psychology of it, beside the board being the board, itself not having a psychology that is).

I wonder how the community is generally defining patterns for themselves.. beyond giving examples.. and all pointing to those and then all convening that those are examples... so I find the coding part crucial here in that it implies a mathematically well defined pattern concept here. Things like that. And then the human worded definitions of lichess. The difference between the code, the human words and then the actual population (semantic fields instances, sorry for the weird words, but that is what I think we might consider, i.e. each indivdidual internal representations worded or not... and only most often communicated thorugh not always satisfying wording, but most efficiently on case per case basis. That is mostly true of other themes than mate themes, but traces of such possible disparity (at the seams or boundaries of defition, perthaps as well defined sets of positions. or positions classes corresponding to patterns), stil might be there in mating patterns. The fact that this is tactical and can even be about shallow dynamics or even static pure positon static exact information. makes mating patterns question the most accessible chess theory "chunk" to become formalized a through well defined postion spaces (my pet topic..).

question to you. in short. do you find this dichotomoy between static mate defintions (name calling) and dynamics mates (like the Lang one, the final static positoin of the mate is part of unamed static mates queen and bishop stuff.. but the art or name callig is about the dynamic method and a static trigger defintion where such method would work..

I am also asking anyone passing thinking of those things and interested by your blog topic.

Also I kind of see a distinction between defining a static mate, and giving that a name (calling that a name itself) and the dynamic patterns to get to some (also static definable, but not named for if not obtained by the dynamic pattern, it would be not worth calling it anything, this is all about human subjectivity and perhaps frequency of experience of level of difficulty, IDK the historical logic or epistemology of that naming knowledge, or even the psychology of it, beside the board being the board, itself not having a psychology that is). I wonder how the community is generally defining patterns for themselves.. beyond giving examples.. and all pointing to those and then all convening that those are examples... so I find the coding part crucial here in that it implies a mathematically well defined pattern concept here. Things like that. And then the human worded definitions of lichess. The difference between the code, the human words and then the actual population (semantic fields instances, sorry for the weird words, but that is what I think we might consider, i.e. each indivdidual internal representations worded or not... and only most often communicated thorugh not always satisfying wording, but most efficiently on case per case basis. That is mostly true of other themes than mate themes, but traces of such possible disparity (at the seams or boundaries of defition, perthaps as well defined sets of positions. or positions classes corresponding to patterns), stil might be there in mating patterns. The fact that this is tactical and can even be about shallow dynamics or even static pure positon static exact information. makes mating patterns question the most accessible chess theory "chunk" to become formalized a through well defined postion spaces (my pet topic..). question to you. in short. do you find this dichotomoy between static mate defintions (name calling) and dynamics mates (like the Lang one, the final static positoin of the mate is part of unamed static mates queen and bishop stuff.. but the art or name callig is about the dynamic method and a static trigger defintion where such method would work.. I am also asking anyone passing thinking of those things and interested by your blog topic.
#15

@dboing said in #13:

I only say that today. very well done all of it. Good work and good sharing of the tools.. I was wondering if somewhere in the blog you mention the existing automatic tagging code that lichess can already apply.

I would have questions about the relation between automatic tagging on lichess mating patterns, the lichess human defintions, and the lichess feedback thematic voting system. Did you get some exposure to that for the previously exiting mating themes?

Otherwise. I will keep your shared links on my todo. I have also looking at your studies.. thanks. simply many thanks.

Aslo very interesting this lichess cooperation sharing. Lucky you can write code and blog and be expressive all at the same time, and happen to focus on something like that which is a tight area of chess theory.

I don't know anything about the existing code that lichess can already apply towards tagging, sorry. I guess I am the wrong person to ask, and if you really want to know, you can always search Github repositories for it. The kill box mating pattern is my first contribution to lichess and I don't know anything about the previously existing once. But their names seem to be standard text box names that existed much longer before lichess. Coding and writting about it is indeed interesting and I did have some practice on that at work and on Codeproject.

@dboing said in #13: > I only say that today. very well done all of it. Good work and good sharing of the tools.. I was wondering if somewhere in the blog you mention the existing automatic tagging code that lichess can already apply. > > I would have questions about the relation between automatic tagging on lichess mating patterns, the lichess human defintions, and the lichess feedback thematic voting system. Did you get some exposure to that for the previously exiting mating themes? > > Otherwise. I will keep your shared links on my todo. I have also looking at your studies.. thanks. simply many thanks. > > Aslo very interesting this lichess cooperation sharing. Lucky you can write code and blog and be expressive all at the same time, and happen to focus on something like that which is a tight area of chess theory. I don't know anything about the existing code that lichess can already apply towards tagging, sorry. I guess I am the wrong person to ask, and if you really want to know, you can always search Github repositories for it. The kill box mating pattern is my first contribution to lichess and I don't know anything about the previously existing once. But their names seem to be standard text box names that existed much longer before lichess. Coding and writting about it is indeed interesting and I did have some practice on that at work and on Codeproject.
#16

Thanks for answering. I would try to avoid the rabbit hole of decrypting code, not much time or energy for that. But if you had, then it might have served as guidance to look at it... getting some kind of big picture of where abouts.. otherwise.. Open source code as its own documentation has some limits. Repositories can be huge and don't reall have thematic table of contents. or I would have to learn the github tools to extrract things like that.. I am a terrible reader it seems, and having to decrypt too many string encoded layers of meaning is beyond me there days.`

Luckily, there are talented intermediate people like you that seem to be able to make sense of one world to another, even giving some hope that I would not need to have the training to become fluent in code to the point where source code= documentation.

You notbook scripts are something I find familiar from a very interactive past experience with notebooks and automatic languages (maybe not python, but I can read code for which I understand what the are the implementation of, I can't really do both decrypting the concepts and the implement angle).

Often it is more dispersed (the source code embeded concepts, than your blog intermediate digestion would amount to. so I was asking you. And it seems I might have more insights using your blogs to guess what might be in lila, functionally.

Thanks for answering. I would try to avoid the rabbit hole of decrypting code, not much time or energy for that. But if you had, then it might have served as guidance to look at it... getting some kind of big picture of where abouts.. otherwise.. Open source code as its own documentation has some limits. Repositories can be huge and don't reall have thematic table of contents. or I would have to learn the github tools to extrract things like that.. I am a terrible reader it seems, and having to decrypt too many string encoded layers of meaning is beyond me there days.` Luckily, there are talented intermediate people like you that seem to be able to make sense of one world to another, even giving some hope that I would not need to have the training to become fluent in code to the point where source code= documentation. You notbook scripts are something I find familiar from a very interactive past experience with notebooks and automatic languages (maybe not python, but I can read code for which I understand what the are the implementation of, I can't really do both decrypting the concepts and the implement angle). Often it is more dispersed (the source code embeded concepts, than your blog intermediate digestion would amount to. so I was asking you. And it seems I might have more insights using your blogs to guess what might be in lila, functionally.
#17

Fascinating post! Wanted to let you know that Martin Justesen is working on the same thing!

See https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=317558&post_id=157020307&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=7jch3&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMjY1OTk0MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTU3MDIwMzA3LCJpYXQiOjE3Mzk0ODA4MTYsImV4cCI6MTc0MjA3MjgxNiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTMxNzU1OCIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.aVs3NcwtPVMSoI5zJdydilsAL7ov_4zD7E-Cop5PVaM

(If that doesn't work, I can email you the post)

Fascinating post! Wanted to let you know that Martin Justesen is working on the same thing! See https://substack.com/app-link/post?publication_id=317558&post_id=157020307&utm_source=post-email-title&utm_campaign=email-post-title&isFreemail=false&r=7jch3&token=eyJ1c2VyX2lkIjoxMjY1OTk0MywicG9zdF9pZCI6MTU3MDIwMzA3LCJpYXQiOjE3Mzk0ODA4MTYsImV4cCI6MTc0MjA3MjgxNiwiaXNzIjoicHViLTMxNzU1OCIsInN1YiI6InBvc3QtcmVhY3Rpb24ifQ.aVs3NcwtPVMSoI5zJdydilsAL7ov_4zD7E-Cop5PVaM (If that doesn't work, I can email you the post)