Restructured Argument • page 2/3 • Lichess Feedback • lichess.org

I hope I'm not making this up, haha!

I think of a pre-move as any move pre-selected during your opponent's turn that would occupy an empty square. For example, a fianchetto.
Pre-moves have rules. If the empty square you pre-selected to move to is occupied, you can't move there and the clock starts for you to make a new decision. Your pre-move is null due to the board change. (Again, I can't speak on pre-moves becoming pre-captures in the instance that your pre-move would instead of occupying an empty square, capture that square)
I distinguish pre-captures as making a selection during your opponents turn, just like a pre-move, only it distinctly captures a piece. For example, French Defense. You push d5 and during their turn, you 'pre-capture' the pawn you're already pushed to e6 with e6-d5. You recapture the pawn with a "pre-capture." Again, that's a pre-move that distinctly captures a piece.
Now, take that same example. French defense and you push d5, but they respond with e5. If you had "pre-captured" the pawn on d5, when they push e5, your clock starts and you have to make a new selection because you can no longer recapture the pawn. That move no longer exists.
A pre-move, again, would be something like c5 after they push e5. Not capturing anything, but since that square is open no matter what they do, you're able to pre-move to it. Another example of a pre-capture in that same sequence would be after pushing c5, during their turn, capturing on d4 with c5-d4.

Is the distinction clear?

I hope I'm not making this up, haha! I think of a pre-move as any move pre-selected during your opponent's turn that would occupy an empty square. For example, a fianchetto. Pre-moves have rules. If the empty square you pre-selected to move to is occupied, you can't move there and the clock starts for you to make a new decision. Your pre-move is null due to the board change. (Again, I can't speak on pre-moves becoming pre-captures in the instance that your pre-move would instead of occupying an empty square, capture that square) I distinguish pre-captures as making a selection during your opponents turn, just like a pre-move, only it distinctly captures a piece. For example, French Defense. You push d5 and during their turn, you 'pre-capture' the pawn you're already pushed to e6 with e6-d5. You recapture the pawn with a "pre-capture." Again, that's a pre-move that distinctly captures a piece. Now, take that same example. French defense and you push d5, but they respond with e5. If you had "pre-captured" the pawn on d5, when they push e5, your clock starts and you have to make a new selection because you can no longer recapture the pawn. That move no longer exists. A pre-move, again, would be something like c5 after they push e5. Not capturing anything, but since that square is open no matter what they do, you're able to pre-move to it. Another example of a pre-capture in that same sequence would be after pushing c5, during their turn, capturing on d4 with c5-d4. Is the distinction clear?

Vempele edited

#12

If you want to play a pre-capture, I think you can enable keyboard move input and type Qxd4 in the textbox.

@Sarg0n
Lightning Rulez, one of the earliest interfaces with premove (possibly even the first?), implemented premove in the way Jobcreator describes. If you premove to an occupied square, but your opponent moves the piece, the premove isn't played.

As far as I know, the way it's implemented on Lichess (no distinction between captures and other premoves) is more common.

If you want to play a pre-capture, I think you can enable keyboard move input and type Qxd4 in the textbox. @Sarg0n Lightning Rulez, one of the earliest interfaces with premove (possibly even the first?), implemented premove in the way Jobcreator describes. If you premove to an occupied square, but your opponent moves the piece, the premove isn't played. As far as I know, the way it's implemented on Lichess (no distinction between captures and other premoves) is more common.

Vempele

#13

A curiosity: in Chess960, a king-captures-rook premove can turn into a castling or a recapture, whichever one ends up being legal.

CM Sarg0n

edited

#14

So when I am gonna premove a mate on an empty square and my opponents puts a piece on that particular square -which prevents nothing- my premove will not be executed and I have to insert the same move a second time? Bizarre.

Toadofsky

#15

I think the strongest argument against change is that a player in time-trouble attempts to premove, the opponent's piece moves, and the player loses on time (because the premove is no longer a capture).

Rrhyddhad

#16

What I interpret from the original post is that the OP didn't realise Qd7 was possible, thus premoving Qd4, and now wants a rule change to ensure he isn't punished for his mistake.

Instead of this, one could just consider Qd7 and not premove.

What I interpret from the original post is that the OP didn't realise Qd7 was possible, thus premoving Qd4, and now wants a rule change to ensure he isn't punished for his mistake. Instead of this, one could just consider Qd7 and not premove.

Vempele edited

#17

#14
While I have never used Lightning Rulez, I have looked at the source code of another implementation of a "Lightning Rulez Style" premove option: no, the move is still played.

The full logic for potentially not playing the premove is
-If the piece on the from-square is of a different kind that it was originally, the move is not made (even though the move could still be legal if multipremove was used)
-If the to-square contained an enemy piece but is now empty, the move is not made.
-I don't recall what happens if the to-square contained an enemy piece but now contains a different enemy piece (could happen with multipremove or Antichess960 castling).

#14 While I have never used Lightning Rulez, I have looked at the source code of another implementation of a "Lightning Rulez Style" premove option: no, the move is still played. The full logic for potentially not playing the premove is -If the piece on the from-square is of a different kind that it was originally, the move is not made (even though the move could still be legal if multipremove was used) -If the to-square contained an enemy piece but is now empty, the move is not made. -I don't recall what happens if the to-square contained an enemy piece but now contains a different enemy piece (could happen with multipremove or Antichess960 castling).

MessyAnswer edited

#18

@Jobcreator #11

There is no distinction between a premove and a precapture. Precapture is a term I'd never heard before I saw this thread. When making a premove, it is not relevant whether the square your piece ends up on is occupied. The only thing that matters is whether it's still a legal move.

In your example, the reason that your premove e6xd5 does not do anything is that it's simply not a legal move. You are not allowed to capture your own pawn and so you have to come up with some different move. This is always the case with recaptures.

If you have a game that starts with 1. e4 Nc6 and black premoving his knight to e5, it does not matter at all whether white plays 2. e5. Black will be able to play that move no matter what white plays.

@Jobcreator #11 There is no distinction between a premove and a precapture. Precapture is a term I'd never heard before I saw this thread. When making a premove, it is not relevant whether the square your piece ends up on is occupied. The only thing that matters is whether it's still a legal move. In your example, the reason that your premove e6xd5 does not do anything is that it's simply not a legal move. You are not allowed to capture your own pawn and so you have to come up with some different move. This is always the case with recaptures. If you have a game that starts with 1. e4 Nc6 and black premoving his knight to e5, it does not matter at all whether white plays 2. e5. Black will be able to play that move no matter what white plays.

Jobcreator

#19

@Rrhyddhad - I certainly knew it was possible and would have absolutely captured on d7 with bishop if the pre-capture move wasn't selected.
I won the game - I'm not sour about the outcome.
The fact is, I made a pre-selected move that, when it came to my turn, was a different move than I pre-selected as the board changed during my opponent's turn.
That's what I'd like. A change to that. If the pre-selected move circumstances change, clock should start and you should have to re-select your move.
I play queen captures but the computer/engine/hivemind responds with queen moves. It's a totally different outcome, therefore, should not be executed by the pre-selected capturing move.

@Toadofsky - that's kind of the point. They would lose on time. But, let's walk that back one step. Why do they lose on time? Say their every intention is to capture queen on d7. Then their opponent moves it. Why do they lose on time? Do they not move queen to d7 even though the opponent queen has vacated? No! They have to think now! They have to re-assess the board and make a NEW, more beneficial move or else lose on time. (Or, blunder the queen like my case) My point is, the player would NOT simply move Qd7 after seeing Qd4, they'd capture with the bishop! They likely - obviously I can't speak for everyone, but given my exact situation as laid out in the study - would have to reassess the board for a moment, realize they can still capture on d7 with bishop and perhaps still get the move off in time.
But that right there is my whole argument. The nature of the pre-move changed. A new decision should be made over the board, negating that pre-move. Just as in real life.

@Rrhyddhad - I certainly knew it was possible and would have absolutely captured on d7 with bishop if the pre-capture move wasn't selected. I won the game - I'm not sour about the outcome. The fact is, I made a pre-selected move that, when it came to my turn, was a *different* move than I pre-selected as the board changed during my opponent's turn. That's what I'd like. A change to that. If the pre-selected move circumstances change, clock should start and you should have to re-select your move. I play queen *captures* but the computer/engine/hivemind responds with queen *moves*. It's a totally different outcome, therefore, should not be executed by the pre-selected capturing move. @Toadofsky - that's kind of the point. They would lose on time. But, let's walk that back one step. Why do they lose on time? Say their every intention is to capture queen on d7. Then their opponent moves it. Why do they lose on time? Do they not move queen to d7 even though the opponent queen has vacated? No! They have to think now! They have to re-assess the board and make a NEW, more beneficial move or else lose on time. (Or, blunder the queen like my case) My point is, the player would NOT simply *move* Qd7 after seeing Qd4, they'd capture with the bishop! They likely - obviously I can't speak for everyone, but given my exact situation as laid out in the study - would have to reassess the board for a moment, realize they can still capture on d7 with bishop and perhaps still get the move off in time. But that right there is my whole argument. The nature of the pre-move changed. A new decision should be made over the board, negating that pre-move. Just as in real life.

CM Sarg0n

edited

#20

Well, there are even guys who premove and ask for takebacks...

I think we're done, going back to square one: it's called pre-move and that's what you get, a move from a to b after all. If it is legal it will be executed, captures don't matter. Case closed.

Well, there are even guys who premove and ask for takebacks... I think we're done, going back to square one: it's called pre-move and that's what you get, a move from a to b after all. If it is legal it will be executed, captures don't matter. Case closed.