Why the US are not a true democracy

1. institutional racism everywhere (and social racism too ofc)

2. death penalty, otherwise ridiculously harsh punishments ("three strikes and you're out"), human rights violation in Guantanamo etc; a weird narcissistic nationalism that persecuted Chelsea Manning, Edward Snowden and others

3. "winner takes all" disrupts presidential elections - popular vote should count

4. gerrymandered as fuck - majority votes are always unfair because "how you voted" is not "what you get", but the US take it to extremes and gerrymandering makes the votes of millions worthless (terrific bureaucracy also bars out blacks and other disadvantaged groups)

5. the votes are also not equally worth in the senate as well as the electoral college - voters from Wyoming have 70x more influence on the senate and 4x more influence on the electorial college than voters from California

6. SCOTUS is heavily biased (and currently irrational too, imo) as its members are named by the reigning president and they stay for lifetime (in Germany you can be in the highest court for 12 years and then never again)

so this is why the US are officially not named a full democracy in the Economist's democracy index, they're rated 7.85/10 (a full democracy needs at least 8/10), and for me that's an overstatement, should be a 7/10 in my book

Merinds me:: I'm starting anotherr new alt account: @spidersneeddemocracytoo

@spidersneedlovetoo said in #2:

Merinds me:: I'm starting anotherr new alt account: @spidersneeddemocracytoo

May I suggest spidersneedMSG or spidersneedjanuary6th ?

The United States is a "representational democracy" and a "republic."

It is not filled with racists. Indeed, the average Republican is not remotely racist. No matter how many times somebody angrily tells you otherwise. I wish self-interested politicians and media-types would stop scaring lovely children of color with a false and dispiriting vision.

Does SOME racism exist? Most everywhere? Sure -- and it will until the day stupidity vanishes. Don't hold your breath.

But I wish many in politics and the media would stop imagining and telling others that many decent, accomplished people, REGARDLESS of color or ancestral origin, are not widely admired and respected in the U.S. by nearly everybody. America's heroes and its most beloved public figures come in all shapes, sizes, colors and faiths. Don't take my word for it. Try noticing who has a huge fan base.

An honest, hard-working, capable American is valued by nearly all other Americans REGARDLESS of superficial differences in race or religion. Indeed, equal protection and the dignity of all is written into the American constitution and its statutes, and has been for a long, long time. This is NOT 1950. It's 2024. Have calendars gone out of fashion?

The electoral college and the two-senator-per-state rules are there for very good reasons, as understood and appreciated by the very geniuses who crafted the American constitution.

They prevent tyranny. They prevent the country being run by a few, more easily manipulated and controlled large urban masses in a limited number of locations. Those who hope to manipulate the country more easily no doubt find the electoral college rules and the two-senator-rules very inconvenient. Tough.

People from ALL of the country can be safe, under the protection of those rules, from any stylish demagogue with good funding who might otherwise easily rule and permanently change the society to her liking or to the liking of those who provide the funding.

I sometimes wonder -- what happened to well-taught Civics classes? When did the REAL VALUE of the American constitution begin to be so under-appreciated by many of America's own citizens?

We all should beware of being politically stylish. It can lead to a REAL lack of understanding. It can take the nation, with manufactured joy, to Chump City. Ho ho ho. Merry Christmas, in advance.

@Noflaps the title is not "why US is not a democracy", it is "why US is not a true democracy." So it's about the deficits of US democracy. I also consulted ChatGPT to make sure I was not missing something; when you ask it for the deficits in the US it basically gives you this. (in a different tone ofc)

Death penalty is an absolute no-no and adverse to human rights declaration. Especially with such severe bias against black people and so many possibly wrong verdicts. Black people are second-class citizens in the US. Also when I read about "three strikes and you're out" it also terribly upset me because it breaks any principle of proportionality.

Talking about the voting system, how would you even get started to defend gerrymandering, or did you intentionally avoid addressing it? I decided to make this post when I read about Kate Barr's campaign against it. It's literally called "gerrymandered as fuck"

Also, how do US people even think about european democracies?

@Cedur216 , the thread's title may have included the word "true" -- but the posting that followed attempted to characterize America in ways with which I cannot uniformly agree.

Furthermore, I explained the REASON for some of the asserted departures from "true" democracy, to make it intelligible to some, I hope, why those departures are very beneficial.

The word "true" sounds so lovely! Who wouldn't want something "true" ! True bliss! True pine-scented deodorant!

Well, there is such a thing as true misery, too. "True" needn't imply something wonderful and to be cherished.

I tried to explain -- especially to the many who really haven't EVER heard the other side of the argument - why America's "representative" democracy is actually better than the mobocracy that could result from some of the policy changes urged upon us by some.

I'm appalled at the large number who have no idea why the electoral college and the two-senator rules were installed -- and how they are a SAFEGAURD against tryanny.

The American Bill of Rights was instituted for the very same reasons.

A "majority" is NOT ALWAYS RIGHT. And, with respect to some things, an impulsive, advertising-led, too-easily indoctrinated mass of people cannot be allowed to crush a minority merely because they outnumber it.

The 1930s were not the only time in history which taught us as much. And I hope that Europe would not disagree.

I agree with 1, 3, 4, 5
For 2, I believe the death penalty is valid under certain circumstances. And for 6, Personally, a long reign is fine as long as the people are happy with it.

For the record...
@Cedur216 said in #5:

@ I also consulted ChatGPT to make sure I was not missing something;

I highly recommend not using Chat GPT to find information about political or ethical issues as it's very biased towards it's creators views (yes it's very true, I'm not the only one saying this)

just a note as this conversation continues. As a person living in the US, I can assure you that talking with Chat GPT can be quite inaccurate as to a portrayal of what actually happens here

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-politics-of-ai-chatgpt-and-political-bias/
https://help.openai.com/en/articles/8313359-is-chatgpt-biased
https://hdsr.mitpress.mit.edu/pub/qh3dbdm9/release/2

#5:

[The] US is not a true democracy.

Good. Because true democracy is utterly abhorrent — as the ancient Greeks learned the hard way, and the Founding Fathers well understood. E.g.:

A pure Democracy, by which I mean a Society consisting of a small number of citizens, who assemble and administer the Government in person, can admit of no cure for the mischiefs of faction. A common passion or interest will, in almost every case, be felt by a majority of the whole; a communication and concert result from the form of Government itself; and there is nothing to check the inducements to sacrifice the weaker party, or an obnoxious individual. Hence it is, that such Democracies have ever been spectacles of turbulence and contention; have ever been found incompatible with personal security, or the rights of property; and have in general been as short in their lives, as they have been violent in their deaths.

— James Madison

Notice we face exactly those problems today — Republicans are the weaker party he speaks of, and Trump is (at least portrayed as) that obnoxious individual, and they are widely discriminated against in the media — and this despite every protective measure the Founders put in place against the tyranny of the majority. ;-( If there’s a threat to democracy in this country, it’s coming from those who seek to increase the size of government — and, with it, their own power — not from those who oppose such intrusions of the public sector into the private one; and from the popular media, not from any narrowly circulated alternative news source. (Selah.)

As for race. Black culture is synonymous with American culture generally, via nearly all our musical genres — from the most popular, like rock ’n’ roll, to the most intellectual, like avant-garde jazz, and even the instruments themselves on which some music is played (e.g. the banjo is an African invention) — much of our cuisine (esp. anything that can be classed as soul food), literature (including great American poets like James Baldwin), science (cf. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_African-American_inventors_and_scientists), sports (basically all of them), etc. — such that to be meaningfully anti American would necessitate being anti black on many levels. Therefore, those who claim America is somehow inherently racist have forgotten what America even is. (Selah.) Finally, here’s what one outspoken black man has to say about racism, politics, etc. in his own words: https://www.azquotes.com/author/13901-Thomas_Sowell Dig that!

In closing: You’d do well to peruse the Federalist Papers, to which Madison was but one contributor. Therein the Founders hashed out all the pros and cons of democracy, and determined they were mainly cons. ;-( This government, then, has from its nascence been an experiment in overcoming all those downsides. Some would say it has failed. I’m inclined to agree with them — but I’ll leave such musings for another time, as this post is already long enough.

I can't say that our representative democracy has failed, @pawnedge.

But when big-money contributors can, as a practical matter, essentially buy conformity and manufacture love, and when mass media make it easy to sell the same nonsense again and again, while suppressing contrary voices under relentless pressure upon the less-informed to "be cool," the challenges to it are not lessened, to say the least.

Should a major television program provide time to one major candidate and not invite the other to show up? Should that be treated as a campaign contribution?

Cling tightly to your objectivity, ladies and gentlemen. Look at what results politicians have ACTUALLY produced.

Many fashionable decisions in history turned out to be PROFOUND mistakes. No matter how many people nodded at each other joyously, at the time.