Does Free Will Exist?

"cogito" is an unproven assumption. then also postulated as first obviousness (or truth) to derive further reasoning of.
it doesn't stand a logical questioning. an ai could state it ... "i process calculations, so i exist" .... "I see things around that I can touch - I must be alive and existing" ...
How deliberate. It's nothing more than a bubble in itself like any other so pretended 'only starting point' to explain anything among #) s e e i n g this world exist, #) t h i n k i n g its truths and relations and causalities within, #) the way we interpret and r e a s o n differently about what every single person sees, #) how 'thinking right or wrong' works #) which words, n o t i o n s and concepts are 'most underlying', most 'genuine' to describe the world in correct terms ...
but all this remains imprisoned in a circle of inner thinking and perception in our brain and outer reality with no means of proving how both, our perception and interpretation and the world for itself, overlap.
it all remain unproven assumptions with no ultimate certainty.

the only way out is scientific pragmatism explaining truths for us in our world, our mesocosmos only as far as we're concerned, as far as they can concern us, ... leaving any 'ultimate first truths' in the dark of beyond what our human brain was made to be able to have insight in.

did you get that now!

Could we even survive without a free will ?

@Alientcp said in #50:
> No, it is not. Physics apply to objects that exist in reality.

Not only objects but any kind of phenomena, including such as streams, radiation, or waves.

> Consciousness is not an object that exist in reality. Its abstract. It is a property of a specific type of functioning brain.

It is not an object, it is a phenomenon created by physical reality. Calling it abstract is extraordinary and demands proof. All evidence from neuroscience points to consciousness being dependent on normal brain functioning, i.e. normal functioning of chemical-electric processes in the concrete stuff inside the skull, hence at least built on the physical reality.

Even if consciousness were abstract, it could still be locked in determinism. Thinking follows a path and is affected by everything you experience, think and learn. One thought causes another one. This endless chain of thought also causes your 'will', your decisions.

> While it is true that if you apply force or alter the brain itself, the consciousness is affected, you cant apply force to the consciousness itself, because it is abstract.

You can power off brain and destroy consciousness.

> And I would argue that you dont even need consciousness. A living being that can move fast enough is all you need to break predetermined outcomes.

How come? That living being was created, caused to exist, by previous predetermined actions, and that being's behavioral capabilities and tendencies itself are highly predetermined by its genetic build-up.

> The abstract its outside of the realm of physics. But since that abstract has agency over the body, it can make it overcome, dodge, or use physics to its advantage.

How does an abstract entity cause an effect in physical reality? This is the old mind-body connection problem. Say an electric current from neuron to muscle makes the muscle contract. How does an abstract entity create that current?

> Yes, hitting the brakes require a physical body and a physical force to push the pedal, but the decision to hit the brakes, the free will if you wish, its on the abstract. It was done after a careful consideration of the outcome of crashing and it decided to avoid said outcome. Physics does not care about outcomes because it is not concussions. But you do.

Our caring of outcomes could be similar to how computers or computer managed machines care about outcomes, i.e. pre-programmed. Drug addict wants the next shot - it is very dubious to maintain this wanting is free, on the contrary, it is only by conditioning of the brain to certain chemicals, neurotransmitters, that makes the addiction. Similarly, a dog wants its meal. But we don't think this wanting is an expression of freedom.

@bbananas said in #53:
> Not only objects but any kind of phenomena, including such as streams, radiation, or waves.
Those are objects that exist in reality.

> All evidence from neuroscience points to consciousness being dependent on normal brain functioning, i.e. normal functioning of chemical-electric processes in the concrete stuff inside the skull, hence at least built on the physical reality.

Exactly what I said. Just in other words.

>It is not an object, it is a phenomenon created by physical reality. Calling it abstract is extraordinary and demands proof.
I didnt said consciousness was an object. It is a property of a functioning brain.

> Even if consciousness were abstract, it could still be locked in determinism. Thinking follows a path and is affected by everything you experience, think and learn. One thought causes another one. This endless chain of thought also causes your 'will', your decisions.

Nope. the laws of physics, which is the source of determination only apply to things that do exist. That are tangible. That occupy space in the universe.

> You can power off brain and destroy consciousness.

Never said the opposite. I actually implied thats exactly what happens when you dont self preserve.

> How come? That living being was created, caused to exist, by previous predetermined actions, and that being's behavioral capabilities and tendencies itself are highly predetermined by its genetic build-up.

The origin of life, yes, probably determined. But once you reach organisms that can act against natural forces, that dont follow the flow of the river, they break determination.

> How does an abstract entity cause an effect in physical reality? This is the old mind-body connection problem. Say an electric current from neuron to muscle makes the muscle contract. How does an abstract entity create that current?

There is no abstract entity. No such thing exist. Its a property of a properly functioning specific type of brain. The entity is the body, the brain itself. The brain controls the body. You dont need consciousness for that interaction. The conscious part only makes you aware of your existence. The more intelligent the entity, the more is able to understand reality and how to use it to its advantage.

> Our caring of outcomes could be similar to how computers or computer managed machines care about outcomes, i.e. pre-programmed.

We are not programmed to follow a set of instructions.

A game is a better example. The physics are predetermined. If you add NPC's still predetermined, as the NPC's are programmed, but the human players are not, and they are the ones that find the glitches, because they reach places you are not supposed to go.

>Drug addict wants the next shot - it is very dubious to maintain this wanting is free, on the contrary, it is only by conditioning of the brain to certain chemicals, neurotransmitters, that makes the addiction.

Yes. But some people rehab because they are conscious of whats happening to them and want to remove themselves from the shackles of addictions.

You are not being forced to answer. You do it because you want to. You probably typed something, then deleted it to change it for something else. That is not predetermined.

@Alientcp said in #54:
> Those are objects that exist in reality.

If stream is an object then consciousness could as well be an object of physical reality.

> Nope. the laws of physics, which is the source of determination only apply to things that do exist.

Are you implying consciousness doesn't exist?

I didn't say the laws of physics apply to abstract reality, but that cause and effect may. Cause and effect may apply to abstract reality, same way as eg. 1+1=2. Our thinking more or less follows association, whether this happens abstractly or spiritually or physically. If I say 'elephant', and you pay attention to what I say, you will more probably think of an elephant than half-life of plutonium.

> Never said the opposite. I actually implied thats exactly what happens when you dont self preserve.

You said you can't apply force to consciousness itself. If you insist that emptying something out of existence is not applying force to something, then I don't understand your definition of applying force.

> The origin of life, yes, probably determined. But once you reach organisms that can act against natural forces, that dont follow the flow of the river, they break determination.

That 'breaking' could be forced by everything that they are and their environment. Also bacteria 'wants' to duplicate and conquer and break the determination. But does it really? There is a genetic code that makes it behave the way it does. There is no possibility for it to behave otherwise.

> We are not programmed to follow a set of instructions.

It is a metaphor for how everything we are born with and live through force our decisions.

> Yes. But some people rehab because they are conscious of whats happening to them and want to remove themselves from the shackles of addictions.

Indeed, I thought if I should add that your conditioning may become more 'cultivated', or further-sighted, but it is still the same mechanism. But that was off the point which is: wanting something doesn't mean your will is free. No matter how smart your will is, it could still be result of your genetic code with all that has happened to you previously.

Otherwise I don't understand how you said you were saying the same, and following the thought to past replies is kind of difficult here.

@bbananas said in #55:
> If stream is an object then consciousness could as well be an object of physical reality.

A stream is electromagnetic radiation. Consciousness it is not.

> Are you implying consciousness doesn't exist?

Depends on how do you define existence. If you define it as an object that exist in space, then yes. it doesnt exist.
But, you can also define existence as an idea or concept. The theory of gravity for instance its an idea, a concept, a thought. It is based on something that does exist, gravity. But the itself theory is a concept.

> I didn't say the laws of physics apply to abstract reality, but that cause and effect may. Cause and effect may apply to abstract reality, same way as eg. 1+1=2. Our thinking more or less follows association, whether this happens abstractly or spiritually or physically. If I say 'elephant', and you pay attention to what I say, you will more probably think of an elephant than half-life of plutonium.

No, you didnt, you implied consciousness was an object that exists in reality.
Cause and effect only applies to objects that exist in reality as far as we can tell.
Of course thinking follows association, else it wouldnt be called thinking. We wouldnt be able to recognize intelligence if we coudlnt communicate.

> You said you can't apply force to consciousness itself. If you insist that emptying something out of existence is not applying force to something, then I don't understand your definition of applying force.

Can you give me 1 kg of red? Can you give me 1 kg of speed? 1 kg of height? 1 kg of weight?
No you cant. Why? Because red is not an entity, nor speed nor height nor weight.
Those are properties of something that do exist. I never said you cant apply force to an object. Of course, if you remove that object out of existence, the properties disappear as well. If the properties are tangible, you can also modify o interact with them. But consciousness is not tangible, as far as we can tell, only the main body, the brain in this case.
You do understand the definition of applying force because it is the same as yours. But again, as far as we can tell, applying force only works on the tangible as far as we can tell. Sure, you poke the brain and you mess with consciousness, but you cant poke consciousness itself without poking the brain.

> That 'breaking' could be forced by everything that they are and their environment. Also bacteria 'wants' to duplicate and conquer and break the determination. But does it really? There is a genetic code that makes it behave the way it does. There is no possibility for it to behave otherwise.

The genetic code, you know its not a actual code right?

> It is a metaphor for how everything we are born with and live through force our decisions.

The decisions are not forced. You decide. Thats the point. You are deciding to continue replying.

> Indeed, I thought if I should add that your conditioning may become more 'cultivated', or further-sighted, but it is still the same mechanism. But that was off the point which is: wanting something doesn't mean your will is free. No matter how smart your will is, it could still be result of your genetic code with all that has happened to you previously.

The genetic code is not an actual code........
Its just the method of organism actually reproducing. And as they exist, obviously their are bound to its rules. I am not arguing against that. Quite the opposite. I said repeatedly that physical objects are bound to forces of nature.

If the objects that exist in nature are inanimate they cant do a single thing by themselves and have no option but to follow determinism. But if they can do something, they can use opposite force to fight against it. If they are strong enough, fast enough, they can do something about it. They wont change nature, but they can change the outcome for themselves.

@Alientcp said in #50:
> No, it is not. Physics apply to objects that exist in reality.
>
> Consciousness is not an object that exist in reality. Its abstract. It is a property of a specific type of functioning brain.
> While it is true that if you apply force or alter the brain itself, the consciousness is affected, you cant apply force to the consciousness itself, because it is abstract.
> And I would argue that you dont even need consciousness. A living being that can move fast enough is all you need to break predetermined outcomes.

Consciousness is not an object but it comes from natural forces (the brain and all the forces that influence the brain) same as anything else. Just as wind will influence a waterfall millions of factors will influence your consciousness, it's not some sealed black box outside of space & time.

Imagining the human psyche as something that exists independently of physical matter is magical thinking. The world inside is just the same as the world 'out there'.

@Alientcp said in #56:
> If the objects that exist in nature are inanimate they cant do a single thing by themselves and have no option but to follow determinism. But if they can do something, they can use opposite force to fight against it. If they are strong enough, fast enough, they can do something about it. They wont change nature, but they can change the outcome for themselves.

There is no "opposite force", life is just another way to exist, we also have no option but to follow our nature. You do something because it's your nature & capacity to do that thing (just as a spider will do spider things and rain will do rain things).

@PureProgressionFTW said in #58:

>There is no "opposite force", life is just another way to exist

Who said life isnt another way to exist? Nobody.
By opposite force means that if a boulder is coming from the left to the right and its going to crush you, you apply force from left to right to push it back and avoid getting crushed by it. Inanimate objects do not do that.

Inanimate objects do not walk to the side to avoid the boulder. They do not jump the boulder. They do not cover behind a bigger boulder. They do not try to go into the hole that is on the path of the boulder. Life is not trapped in the stream of determination, it surfs it. At least to a degree.

> we also have no option but to follow our nature.

Where have you been the last couple of years?
Havent you seen dog people? Cat people? Cow people?

Our bodies are adapted to walk, but also we are good balancing and grabbing from branches or anything really. The joint in the elbows and shoulders its a feature that our ancestors left to us, as it evolved specifically to balance on the trees, 180 degrees on the rotation of the elbow full 360 on the shoulder. Also the binocular vision and the dexterity on the hands. Binocular vision to properly gauge the distance to the next tree. Dexterity on the hand to grab the next branch, or to keep the food in the hands, as there were scary predators at the bottom of the tree.

We do not follow nature, you use clothing, you use shoes, the walking part is relative, we drive mostly, whether are cars, motorcycles, bikes, scooters, skates, we fly.

Our disabled use glasses, wheelchairs, prosthetic arms and legs, hearing aids.

We broke "Our nature" a long time ago.

@PureProgressionFTW said in #57:
> Consciousness is not an object but it comes from natural forces
The brain is not a force.

Gravity is. Electromagnetism is.

>Imagining the human psyche as something that exists independently of physical matter is magical thinking.

You are proposing that. (And many christians do btw). I didnt.

I said consciousness is a property of the brain. Without a brain, you cant have the property.

I do not know why is that even a topic.