How to pick a move in this position? • page 1/2 • General Chess Discussion • lichess.org

Rogue_Zamboni

#1

Can an experienced player explain how to choose a next move move in this opening position?

rnbqkbnr/pp2p1pp/2p2p2/3pP3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4

Specifically, one has two opening principles that are contradicting each other.

"play in the center / protect center pawns"

"develop a new piece each move"

I find the choice of moves here to be paralyzing, there is no way to analyze.

Can someone explain WHY the best move Nc3 is best here and not something that defends the pawn? How do you decide that?

Can an experienced player explain how to choose a next move move in this opening position? rnbqkbnr/pp2p1pp/2p2p2/3pP3/3P4/8/PPP2PPP/RNBQKBNR w KQkq - 0 4 Specifically, one has two opening principles that are contradicting each other. "play in the center / protect center pawns" "develop a new piece each move" I find the choice of moves here to be paralyzing, there is no way to analyze. Can someone explain WHY the best move Nc3 is best here and not something that defends the pawn? How do you decide that?

borninthesixties

#2

Let me return the question to you - what makes you say that Nc3 is best? I'm looking at the engine analysis and it gives both Nc3 and Nf3 as being equivalent (+1.0). Other moves are good as well, such as Bd3.

The pawn (assume you are referring to the one on e5) is already protected by another pawn. So if the opponent takes it, you just take back. Now, if you decide you'd rather take back with a piece, then you should play Nf3 which gives you that option.

One thing that Nf3 does is block the f pawn. In some lines you might want to be able to push that pawn so perhaps Nc3 would be better in that case.

Sometimes it doesn't really matter and it becomes a matter of taste, or what kinds of positions you are comfortable with.

Let me return the question to you - what makes you say that Nc3 is best? I'm looking at the engine analysis and it gives both Nc3 and Nf3 as being equivalent (+1.0). Other moves are good as well, such as Bd3. The pawn (assume you are referring to the one on e5) is already protected by another pawn. So if the opponent takes it, you just take back. Now, if you decide you'd rather take back with a piece, then you should play Nf3 which gives you that option. One thing that Nf3 does is block the f pawn. In some lines you might want to be able to push that pawn so perhaps Nc3 would be better in that case. Sometimes it doesn't really matter and it becomes a matter of taste, or what kinds of positions you are comfortable with.

norla edited

#3

If you are worried that black will take and push the d-pawn, it doesn't quite work out for him.

https://lichess.org/study/iK3JCmHr/bOjFl26U#6

If you are worried that black will take and push the d-pawn, it doesn't quite work out for him. https://lichess.org/study/iK3JCmHr/bOjFl26U#6

pointlesswindows

#4

It's a bad opening, so why do you want to find a good move there in the first place? Both sides made 3 moves with pawns only. It's not how chess should be played!

If I had to play it (for example if you paid me to play such a shitty opening) I would pick white pieces and made sure that my king is castled and safe soon. Black has already problems to do so (holes on f7 and c7). White position simply looks better and Nf3 or Nc3 is the next logical move. It brings a minor piece to game while black has even problems with his own knights - f6 and c6 blocked by badly placed pawns.

It's a bad opening, so why do you want to find a good move there in the first place? Both sides made 3 moves with pawns only. It's not how chess should be played! If I had to play it (for example if you paid me to play such a shitty opening) I would pick white pieces and made sure that my king is castled and safe soon. Black has already problems to do so (holes on f7 and c7). White position simply looks better and Nf3 or Nc3 is the next logical move. It brings a minor piece to game while black has even problems with his own knights - f6 and c6 blocked by badly placed pawns.

Katoh1

#5

If you play Nf3 then there is no contradiction as the move is in accordance with both of your principles.

Brian-E

edited

#6

@pointlesswindows said in #4:

It's a bad opening, so why do you want to find a good move there in the first place? Both sides made 3 moves with pawns only. It's not how chess should be played!
[...]

Many strong players would disagree with you, and the advance variation of the Caro-Kann 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 is played at all levels, though Black's third move 3...f6 is admittedly unusual and dubious. As pointed out above by borninthesixties, a lot of opening play is a matter of taste and what you're comfortable with.

@pointlesswindows said in #4: > It's a bad opening, so why do you want to find a good move there in the first place? Both sides made 3 moves with pawns only. It's not how chess should be played! > [...] Many strong players would disagree with you, and the advance variation of the Caro-Kann 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 is played at all levels, though Black's third move 3...f6 is admittedly unusual and dubious. As pointed out above by borninthesixties, a lot of opening play is a matter of taste and what you're comfortable with.

pointlesswindows

#7

I don't say I am a chess prophecy (unlike some users on this forum). Maybe it's Caro-can maybe some transposition, it's even not important, because for amateurs (most of this forum users) it's much better to stick to common opening rules, rather than dive into some expert level openings knowledge, where moves are counterintuitive and you get cramped, obscure positions. And the position he showed is a perfect example how to confuse a beginner.

dd219

#8

@pointlesswindows said in #7:

rather than dive into some expert level openings knowledge, where moves are counterintuitive and you get cramped, obscure positions.

Actually, most of the main lines "experts" play are very intuitive. Of course there are exceptions, but mostly its just developing your pieces and fighting for the center. Lets take the caro kann as an example. 1.e4 is an obvious move, taking control of the center. 1...c6 plans to play d5 to strike in the center. 2. d4 controls the center again. 2...d5 striking in the center. Here there are a couple moves, and they are all logical. 3. e5 is the most popular and ambitious move, taking space from blacks position. However, moves like 3. Nc3 are also possible. All of these moves are very intuitive, and they don't require you to memorize some dynamic resources. This is also the case for something like the Ruy Lopez. In this case, white develops his bishop, castles, and tries to play for the center (c3 d4). All of these openings follow the opening principles, and they aren't counterintuitive or give you cramped, obscure positions. However, there are of course exceptions. For example, the modern benoni is not something that should be played at a beginner level. It is extremely dynamic, requires a lot of prior knowledge, and gives you an obscure position that doesn't follow opening principles. It is of course playable, but it requires many dynamic resources that are simply unrealistic to memorize as a beginner.

@pointlesswindows said in #7: > rather than dive into some expert level openings knowledge, where moves are counterintuitive and you get cramped, obscure positions. Actually, most of the main lines "experts" play are very intuitive. Of course there are exceptions, but mostly its just developing your pieces and fighting for the center. Lets take the caro kann as an example. 1.e4 is an obvious move, taking control of the center. 1...c6 plans to play d5 to strike in the center. 2. d4 controls the center again. 2...d5 striking in the center. Here there are a couple moves, and they are all logical. 3. e5 is the most popular and ambitious move, taking space from blacks position. However, moves like 3. Nc3 are also possible. All of these moves are very intuitive, and they don't require you to memorize some dynamic resources. This is also the case for something like the Ruy Lopez. In this case, white develops his bishop, castles, and tries to play for the center (c3 d4). All of these openings follow the opening principles, and they aren't counterintuitive or give you cramped, obscure positions. However, there are of course exceptions. For example, the modern benoni is not something that should be played at a beginner level. It is extremely dynamic, requires a lot of prior knowledge, and gives you an obscure position that doesn't follow opening principles. It is of course playable, but it requires many dynamic resources that are simply unrealistic to memorize as a beginner.

NM ThunderClap edited

#9

Obviously Bd3 is best here ... Enter the move & watch Stockfish 'agree' @Rogue_Zamboni f6 isn't good 3... c5 & 3... Bf5 are the 'normal' moves here instead of f6 ? f6 tries to undermine the Center from it's strongest point & weakens the Black King but if you are interested in these reasons you are exploring Chess & how to react to wrong moves & wrong Plans . a good way to Study this Subject is to Play over Complete Games From the following work ' ... Chess Book & Chess Videos related to My Best Games of Chess by Alexander Alekhine World Chess Champion as he shows how to take advantage of Typical Mistakes in opponant's Plans Opening moves & with great Middlegame & Endgame Technique @Rogue_Zamboni Another Two books You should read be reading now are Chess ; The Art Of Logical Thinking from the First Move To The Last by Neil Mcdonald & Logical Chess Move by Move by Irving Chernev @Rogue_Zamboni Also watch free You Tube Chess Videos on Alexander Alekhine if you would like' ... To Improve STUDY PLAY PLAY STUDY Chess ... 5 Minute Chess is fine as long as AFTER THE GAME IS OVER you use Lichess Analysis Board features to LOOK AT the GAMES YOU PLAY & Analysis under TOOLS . Also under the WATCH you can go to Broadcasts choose a Tournament & Play over COMPLETED GAMES ... Play Chess Study Chess Play . BTW Bd3 Threatens Qh5+ if g6 Bxg6+ hxg6 Qx h8 the Rook is gone

codingmasterggg

#10

@Rogue_Zamboni said in #1:

Nc3 and Nf3 are practically equal in strength. Black taking on e5 with the f-pawn isn't a concern-all it does is weaken white.
(I'm not exactly experienced, sorry.)
Actually, if you check the engine, white has a multitude of moves that give him/her an advantage. f6 was such a

@Rogue_Zamboni said in #1: > Nc3 and Nf3 are practically equal in strength. Black taking on e5 with the f-pawn isn't a concern-all it does is weaken white. (I'm not exactly experienced, sorry.) Actually, if you check the engine, white has a multitude of moves that give him/her an advantage. f6 was such a