Bullet players with poor connection

I am playing very little bullet, but recently played the Daniel Naroditsky Memorial on Lichess while still being in Goa, India, staying in the official World Cup hotel. My ping on Lichess during my stay in the hotel was oscillating between 150 and 300 ms if I remember correctly. (Not being technically skilled, I did nothing to optimize it, just connected and played.)
It felt as an advantage, as I was able to premove while normally the opponents often make their move in the meantime. That said, it is obvious why I played with such a connection - I wanted to take part in that tournament and was in a place where the lag was present. Now I am at home, and my ping is 28 ms.
I won many rating points in that bullet tournament. After my return to the Czech Republic I played four more bullet games, and won many rating points again. (As my rating was provisional, with big oscillations.) I am currently very much overrated in bullet, but it is not a crime. I will lose some bullet rating once I play more games.
To sum up, the quality of play is more important than the lag unless it is extreme, but I agree with you that the lag can play a significant role in bullet, and even more so in hyperbullet or ultrabullet. (I do not play those formats, I am too old to find them attractive.)
Many players have suboptimal connection just because the place from where they are playing is far from a server. (I might be confusing some technical details, but the idea is clear.) Of course there are also some cases when the players are manipulating with the lag.

I am playing very little bullet, but recently played the Daniel Naroditsky Memorial on Lichess while still being in Goa, India, staying in the official World Cup hotel. My ping on Lichess during my stay in the hotel was oscillating between 150 and 300 ms if I remember correctly. (Not being technically skilled, I did nothing to optimize it, just connected and played.) It felt as an advantage, as I was able to premove while normally the opponents often make their move in the meantime. That said, it is obvious why I played with such a connection - I wanted to take part in that tournament and was in a place where the lag was present. Now I am at home, and my ping is 28 ms. I won many rating points in that bullet tournament. After my return to the Czech Republic I played four more bullet games, and won many rating points again. (As my rating was provisional, with big oscillations.) I am currently very much overrated in bullet, but it is not a crime. I will lose some bullet rating once I play more games. To sum up, the quality of play is more important than the lag unless it is extreme, but I agree with you that the lag can play a significant role in bullet, and even more so in hyperbullet or ultrabullet. (I do not play those formats, I am too old to find them attractive.) Many players have suboptimal connection just because the place from where they are playing is far from a server. (I might be confusing some technical details, but the idea is clear.) Of course there are also some cases when the players are manipulating with the lag.

IamNOTamod

#12

@AquilaReale64 said in #10:

If it's that simple, why does lag cheating exist? There are many threads about this on the forum. Why is it much easier to play and knock down the flag of a player with a good connection? And I can hardly do it with a bad conected player?

Well, you can find people arguing both ways for everything.

If your opponent has lag, after your move is submitted you have lots of time until his next move arrives at your client. You can use that time to enter your premove.

I guess people complaining are mostly not premoving, but waiting for their opponents move first.

Or maybe you can describe exactly how the opponent's lag puts you at a disadvantage in that regard?

That's how it looks in theory. In practice, many people, like me, notice the opposite. Just google it "lichess lag cheating" or "lichess lag compenstion". There are so many themes on the forum. Maybe I want to play a bullet game rather than a series of premoves, simply because my opponent has the opportunity to do so and will do so.
The developers clearly did something wrong. But they will ignore it. Two years ago, many people complained about poor connection to the site, and only a year later the developers introduced some option in the settings, but it did not help everyone.

So many posts...by tilting players.

@AquilaReale64 said in #10: > > > If it's that simple, why does lag cheating exist? There are many threads about this on the forum. Why is it much easier to play and knock down the flag of a player with a good connection? And I can hardly do it with a bad conected player? > > > > Well, you can find people arguing both ways for everything. > > > > If your opponent has lag, after your move is submitted you have lots of time until his next move arrives at your client. You can use that time to enter your premove. > > > > I guess people complaining are mostly not premoving, but waiting for their opponents move first. > > > > Or maybe you can describe exactly how the opponent's lag puts you at a disadvantage in that regard? > > That's how it looks in theory. In practice, many people, like me, notice the opposite. Just google it "lichess lag cheating" or "lichess lag compenstion". There are so many themes on the forum. Maybe I want to play a bullet game rather than a series of premoves, simply because my opponent has the opportunity to do so and will do so. > The developers clearly did something wrong. But they will ignore it. Two years ago, many people complained about poor connection to the site, and only a year later the developers introduced some option in the settings, but it did not help everyone. So many posts...by tilting players.

thedestroyer2012

#13

Wha it we just remove premoves altogether :mindblown:

klbrn

#14

I'm pretty sure the lagging player does not have a tehoretical advantadge, but they do in practice.

That advantadge is that to the non-lagging player has to:

Notice that the other player is a lagger
Adjust the play rythm accordingly . Even if the opponent's moves feel normal they may be pre-moving, so you start pre-moving too or you lose on time.

To the lagging player every game feels the same. To the non-lagging player every game is different, bullet games almost turning into non-lagging ultrabullet.

I'm pretty sure the lagging player does not have a tehoretical advantadge, but they do in practice. That advantadge is that to the non-lagging player has to: 1. Notice that the other player is a lagger 2. Adjust the play rythm accordingly . Even if the opponent's moves feel normal they may be pre-moving, so you start pre-moving too or you lose on time. To the lagging player every game feels the same. To the non-lagging player every game is different, bullet games almost turning into non-lagging ultrabullet.

fredo599

#15

I am not sure lags create an advantage (I'll leave it to the experts to decide) but I do think they change the nature of a fast game.

Assuming that the ping defines the delay between the server and the player and that both directions have the same delay ...

Take 2 players with an excellent connection (ping 10 ms) spending 1 second to evaluate a position and play.

This means that players will see a response 1.042 seconds after they make their move (10ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 10ms lag + 1 second thinking + 10ms lag + 1ms + 10ms)

Now take player A with an excellent connection (ping 10 ms) and player B with a slow connection (ping 400 ms) still taking 1 second to make their moves.
When player A clicks a move, the response will come after (10ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 400ms lag + 1 second thinking + 400ms lag + 1ms + 10ms) ... 1.822 seconds
When player B clicks a move, the response will come after (400ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 10ms lag + 1 second thinking + 10ms lag + 1ms + 400ms) ... 1.822 seconds

If the server is not careful, it will have the illusion that player A is playing faster than player B

So, if I stick to the facts, both players have the same perception of the game. Lag manipulation is about fooling the server (but I am pretty sure the server is equipped to detect that).

When you look at the figures, you can easily understand why a player with a fast connection playing a slow connection after having played a 'normal' bullet will be frustrated (I am still not sure about having a disadvantage)

I am not sure lags create an advantage (I'll leave it to the experts to decide) but I do think they change the nature of a fast game. Assuming that the ping defines the delay between the server and the player and that both directions have the same delay ... Take 2 players with an excellent connection (ping 10 ms) spending 1 second to evaluate a position and play. This means that players will see a response 1.042 seconds after they make their move (10ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 10ms lag + 1 second thinking + 10ms lag + 1ms + 10ms) Now take player A with an excellent connection (ping 10 ms) and player B with a slow connection (ping 400 ms) still taking 1 second to make their moves. When player A clicks a move, the response will come after (10ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 400ms lag + 1 second thinking + 400ms lag + 1ms + 10ms) ... 1.822 seconds When player B clicks a move, the response will come after (400ms lag + 1ms lichess time + 10ms lag + 1 second thinking + 10ms lag + 1ms + 400ms) ... 1.822 seconds If the server is not careful, it will have the illusion that player A is playing faster than player B So, if I stick to the facts, both players have the same perception of the game. Lag manipulation is about fooling the server (but I am pretty sure the server is equipped to detect that). When you look at the figures, you can easily understand why a player with a fast connection playing a slow connection after having played a 'normal' bullet will be frustrated (I am still not sure about having a disadvantage)

Ender88

edited

#16

@RealDavidNavara
I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning.
What IF lag can be faked?

As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial.
Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game.

I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets.
Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit.

IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much).

@RealDavidNavara I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning. What IF lag can be faked? As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial. Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game. I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets. Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit. IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much).

IamNOTamod

#17

@Ender88 said in #16:

@IamNOTamod I think what @AquilaReale64

I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning.
What IF lag can be faked?

As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial.
Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game.

I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets.
Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit.

IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much).

I never said lag can't be faked...

@Ender88 said in #16: > > > > @IamNOTamod I think what @AquilaReale64 > > I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning. > What IF lag can be faked? > > As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial. > Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game. > > I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets. > Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit. > > IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much). I never said lag can't be faked...

Ender88

edited

#18

@IamNOTamod said in #17:

@IamNOTamod I think what @AquilaReale64

I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning.
What IF lag can be faked?

As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial.
Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game.

I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets.
Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit.

IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much).

I never said lag can't be faked...

I quoted the wrong message sorry.
I meant to answer to @GM RealDavidNavara that was talking (as I understood him) about the fact that true skill matter more than lag, because lag is una tantum condition while skill are present in all the game.
In theory I agree with him.
But just added that if the player with lag is one of the ones who fake it, then lag isn't anymore a temporary condition.

@IamNOTamod said in #17: > > > > > @IamNOTamod I think what @AquilaReale64 > > > > I may agree on every word you say, but also IMHO you miss a big IF in your reasoning. > > What IF lag can be faked? > > > > As you noticed lag may be beneficial, a faked lag may also results in extra time, and will surely be beneficial. > > Moreover is not a random component, one player may constantly fake high lag in each game. > > > > I think it will not be trivial, but also not so technically difficult to fake such value, users only need to tamper with outgoing packets. > > Unfortunately I don't see how Lichess may prevent such exploit. > > > > IMHO the best thing to do is quit lag compensation at all, and force a minimum time-spent per move (otherwise people with low latency will be advantaged too much). > > I never said lag can't be faked... I quoted the wrong message sorry. I meant to answer to @GM RealDavidNavara that was talking (as I understood him) about the fact that true skill matter more than lag, because lag is una tantum condition while skill are present in all the game. In theory I agree with him. But just added that if the player with lag is one of the ones who fake it, then lag isn't anymore a temporary condition.