France’s Macron Brutally Fact Checks Trump to His Face

When "nobody" we speak to disagrees with us, we might wish to ask ourselves: are we living in a virtual echo chamber, having relatively little contact with contrary opinions, viewpoints and interpretations of events? If so, is that helpful?

One of the many ways we might check: did just about "everybody" we speak with tell us, last year, that Joe Biden was doing a great job and was at the top of his game? Sharp as ever, overseeing a really secure border? Did they tell us that inflation was "transitory" and not really a big deal?

Isn't it best to have some exposure to counterargument and different interpretations of the facts? To dig into details and not quickly seize and run with vague, simplistic generalizations and characterizations?

Or should we, instead, surround ourselves with, and listen to, only those who think just the same as we do?

I like, indeed love, diversity -- including diversity of thought. But we can all make that decision for ourselves, I guess.

No, I'm not "backing Russia." And I will join @ThunderClap (apparently) in believing that we should not "back Russia" in its dispute with Ukraine. Not at all. Indeed, I have objected to the invasion of Ukraine from its beginning. Go back and check my posts if you wish, to see if that's accurate.

But this thread is addressing some additional concerns, I believe. And I hope we realize that any current unanimity in favor of, or against, any "deal" Trump works out might be premature or turn out to be mistaken.

Let me ask: is it a bad thing to recognize that America -- which has an enormous national debt already -- might not be able to provide unlimited, enormous funding to any other nation for an indefinite period into the future? Or must we just ignore all attempts to consider the matter objectively and just shout at each other. Must we harm the currency or drive interest rates still higher rather than try to find some practical solution, if one is available?

I don't think I'll shout. I think I'll just watch how this works out before coming to a final conclusion.

I think I'll try to find the DETAILS of any arrangements, to the extent that they are not classified and are available to objective journalists. Objecting to an arrangement before its terms are even worked out and known seems premature, even if the arrangement is made by a political adversary.

And I'm going to wonder: what if a reasonable deal could be worked out that ends the war and the horrible, continued death and destruction?

I'd like to know the terms of any such deal, before I came out in favor of it or against it, admittedly. But it seems conceivable that the parties, perhaps with American help, might work out SOME deal that might, on balance, be better than the status quo or the practical alternatives. I think I'll wait and see if that happens and, in the meantime, at least consider the views even of those who might not always agree with me.

@ThunderClap said in #10:

Trump LOST America the last few days NOBODY I speak to supports BACKING THE RUSSIANS it's COMPLETE BULLSCRAP

TESLA's sales in Europe down 50 % !!

Because of Musk's support of the far-right party AfD in Germany and his terrible reckless actions with "DOGE".

Well, Trump voted in the UN together with Iran, North Korea, Russia and other Moscow-friendly countries.
Against the rest of the free World..!!??

That was unimaginable since 80 years!! USA now thrown out from modern civilization, by Trump!

@Noflaps said in #11:

I don't think I'll shout. I think I'll just watch how this works out before coming to a final conclusion.

I really don't think that people of the USA have the luxury of taking time to see how things turn out. Every day constitutional safeguards are being dismantled and every day foreign relationships are being betrayed by the Trump/Musk administration. Spend too long considering that there is some 4D chess game going on and you'll find that the USA has become a broken state run on lies by oligarchs.

@Noflaps said in #11:

When "nobody" we speak to disagrees with us, we might wish to ask ourselves: are we living in a virtual echo chamber, having relatively little contact with contrary opinions, viewpoints and interpretations of events? If so, is that helpful?

100% correct.

It's also sometimes the case that a person can be so abrasive, obnoxious, or intimidating that people will simply agree with them, or even the case that the whole of the society has become so overridden with such a feeling of unity it turns into zeal that produces extreme social censure that every sane person wishes to avoid.

There is also the situation where being a blogger with a controversial stance will get you arrested...

https://x.com/blyskavka_ua/status/1628350737511055361

... And they will violate the sanctity of a monastery to issue the arrest warrant.

In the video below, a man who has returned from the frontlines fighting against Russia speaks Russian instead of Ukrainian to a taxi driver, starting an altercation:

https://x.com/OlgaBazova/status/1730932102105846053

It seems unlikely that much free speech or even free thought can be exercised in such conditions.

I think Trump is crying tonight as he KNOWS he lost Americans & American support

Right to his MORONIC Face'

@Decaffeinated said in #14:

100% correct.

It's also sometimes the case that a person can be so abrasive, obnoxious, or intimidating that people will simply agree with them, or even the case that the whole of the society has become so overridden with such a feeling of unity it turns into zeal that produces extreme social censure that every sane person wishes to avoid.

There is also the situation where being a blogger with a controversial stance will get you arrested...

https://twitter.com/blyskavka_ua/status/1628350737511055361

... And they will violate the sanctity of a monastery to issue the arrest warrant.

In the video below, a man who has returned from the frontlines fighting against Russia speaks Russian instead of Ukrainian to a taxi driver, starting an altercation:

https://twitter.com/OlgaBazova/status/1730932102105846053

It seems unlikely that much free speech or even free thought can be exercised in such conditions.

Lets see how true that thought exercise is. No one we speak to counters the idea that the Earth is round. Does that mean we are living in an echo chamber? Does that mean "free speech or even free thought" cannot be exercised on whether it is flat? Nope. We understand it is round because there are simple pieces of evidence that prove it to be round. And people are free to question it as we see on this very forum and on youtube.

So in fact, its 100% wrong :P

See, that's what critical thinking is all about, learning to test whether claims are true or false by some applied thinking

@Decaffeinated said in #14:

... And they will violate the sanctity of a monastery to issue the arrest warrant.

It's a war, get real. You really expect niceties like the "sanctity of a monastery". This sounds like the weakest of Russian crybaby propaganda especially when combined with an isolated incident of a shirty taxi driver.

@Noflaps said in #11:

But this thread is addressing some additional concerns, I believe. And I hope we realize that any current unanimity in favor of, or against, any "deal" Trump works out might be premature or turn out to be mistaken.

The "deal" is just "surrender to Russia. Ukraine is just offered the same as they'd get if they just gave up.

Let me ask: is it a bad thing to recognize that America -- which has an enormous national debt already -- might not be able to provide unlimited, enormous funding to any other nation for an indefinite period into the future?

That's the lie you use. But you know - you don't have to pay anything if your precious money is worth more than protecting democracy and making good on your empty promises to potect your allies. You actually just need to do two things:

1. Don't vote to bacl Russia and North Korea in the UNO. This doesn' cost you anything. You could actually do us a great favor by just not showing up in the UN at all and you'd save your precious money as you could pay the staff.

so when you pretend it's a money issue it's just LIES.--.

2. Just let us BUY the stuff Ukraine need from you, thre's some things like missiles for Patriot systems and aging tanks that you have in abundance. As I understand it is on the table that USA will also refuse to sell Patriot missiles, hence you're helping Russia to bomb civilians.

It would actually MAKE you money to les Europe buy stuff for Ukraine. You could get those sweet dollars you crave above eveything else sellng youe aging tanks and PMVs you have stored in the desert. BUT what you want to do is to say "no sale, we'd rather have out tanks get ruined from just lying in storage forever instead of helping Ukraine."

So it is a BALD FACED LIE when you pretend it is about money.

It's not about money, what is looks like right now is that it's about USA wanting Russia to win EVEN IF IT COSTS MONEY FOR THE USA.

It can change, it is not finished what happens in these crazt talks, but right now what you're doing is not AT ALL that you're like on the side of Ukraine but you're just broke and somebody else has to pay - wat you're doing is "USA is trying to help Russia to win and USA is trying to break the diplomatic isolation of Russa."

someone asked: "Let me ask: is it a bad thing to recognize that America -- which has an enormous national debt already -- might not be able to provide unlimited, enormous funding to any other nation for an indefinite period into the future? "

That is almost a fair question. Another fair question: Who has asked America to provide "unlimited, enormous funding" to anyone, " for an indefinite period into the future"?
Short answer, no one has. Yes, the Ukraine is asking for help. Unlimited help, until the end of time? No. They are asking for a continuation of aid that they have already received in return for doing America's dirty work for them. That's called a quid pro quo. Ukrainians have done the bleeding, largely at Washington's behest. Wouldn't it be nice if, after Ukrainians have held up their end for 3 years, Americans did the same? But some Americans feel that no, it's not convenient now for America to hold up it's end. Or rather, a handful of Americans smell a profit to be made by selling out the people who have been standing in the front line for them. As a Canadian, I can only say that I've seen this before. Don't trust a USAnian if he's behind you.

America's enormous debt: how did it get that way? Well, among other things, building the greatest military empire the world has ever known. If, by cutting off the supply of arms to Ukraine, the USA were able to reduce its military spending by a similar amount, an argument could be made that this would be a noble effort to reduce the USA's national debt. If you believe that will happen, I've got some ocean-front property in Nebraska to sell. What, you really think this is about the USA national debt? Well now we have the opportunity to test the hypothesis. Any one want to give odds that the US military budget will be reduced by the cost of the armaments it isn't sending to the Ukraine? Think of that sea-front beach house in Nebraska; sun-bathing in January, skinny-dipping with the local lovelies in the warm, salty Nebraska ocean. Step right up,ladies and gents, and lay your money down. You can't go wrong betting on reducing the Pentagon budget.