Cheating - how Lichess works and what users should think about it

@odoaker2015 said in #24:
> I assume this relates to why Cedur wrote this blog.
> I have a 5th point:
> The headline says how users should think about how Lichess works. The users can think independently and on their own how Lichess works. They don't need a Cedur to tell them how they should think about it.
Exactly! Only mods can tell true picture as to how Lichess is governed.

@Cedur216 said in #29:
> if you care to know, several happenings in Twitch communities (with, as said, Moritex' incidence being the final straw) made this blog necessary, and mods will give you the same answers, as I mostly drew my knowledge from mod statements. In fact I got a like from a mod today, but there's no notification from them yet on what part I was potentially wrong.
In that case, first tell who are you?
A mod? Clearly, no!
And a mod has right to clear issues regarding how system works.
A user can only guess.
No one can be even equal to mod in telling about it.

@odoaker2015 said in #17:
> It is also suspicious that he was marked shortly after drawing against an IM. This suggests that it was reported by the IM.

No it doesn't.

That Blog post is an attempt to suck up to lichess, and trying to explain that cheating at lichess is not common.
OP do you know what you're on about?
If for example someone has any random number of devices with access to the website, they can theoretically cheat that number of games at the same time and not get caught.
So what does the OP blog post prove?
Don't you know robots are becoming sensitive?

@Deadban said in #26:

> 2) To odoaker2015, when you say in #8 "You shouldn't blindly trust anyone. Neither does lichess. If I tell you now that I have a goblin named Pumuckl at home, do you believe me?", I ask you, do you realize that you're doing the same thing, trusting blindly Moritex?

That is not right. If you read my first post in #4 carefully, it says clearly: "Of course it's possible that he cheated. But I think that's very unlikely."
I don't trust Moritex blindly. I'm just not convinced he cheated.

@alexholowczak said in #32:
> No it doesn't.

Why? It's quite odd that Moritex was banned directly after drawing against the IM. Hence my guess. I never said it was like that.

@Deadban said in #26:
> When someone is banned for cheating only two parties know the truth: the account holder and the site.
> Everyone else is just speculating and base their conclusions on emotions primarily and on what it's supposed to be the evidence, which they can't know for sure since only the site has the full evidence, secondly.

That's not entirely true either. Lichess doesn't know the truth either. Lichess only estimates using an algorithm. But that doesn't reveal the truth. To make matters worse, the algorithm is faulty in parts. Only the person concerned knows the truth.

> Only the person concerned knows the truth.

yeah and the person concerned sells it very much to their advantage. You never cared about the rudeness and polemic contempt spread in his stream, and the fact that he incited people to cancel or suspend their donation support for no other reason.

Lichess doesn't just "estimate", and no distinction in the world will logically imply "the estimate was wrong / poor". Both the AI and human decisions are way more precise than you think (or want to admit). Otherwise Lichess would have way bigger problems than just occasional outcrys after banning a big name. The team has both great statisticians and strong chess players. I'm linking this source

www.chess.com/article/view/online-chess-cheating

and Lichess is not different.

You and other supporters act from a dead-set ideology of hallowing your streamer because of his activities and that's just irrational and unjust. You should start thinking towards the opposite especially when they're getting this hostile to Lichess themselves. The whole stream titled "on my own account" was him just proclaiming he's innocent, taken for granted, and then dragging Lichess through the mire. In fact already having him saying "Ich spiel Schach aus Freude am Spiel" ("I play chess for fun") should ring an alarm bell. Like, what person needs to emphasize this empty trivial statement?

Due to this common-spread ideology of defending your beloved streamers (or community friends), the public understanding of cheat detection is so low and ignorant. They have no idea about the true workings but only a loud pro-streamer agenda to spread even against all rational objections.

> Why? It's quite odd that Moritex was banned directly after drawing against the IM. Hence my guess. I never said it was like that.

You at least suggested that he was reported by the IM and banned because of that, but that's a poor speculation. In fact, its truth would even speak against Moritex all the more, implying he was banned right afterwards without human revision (the AI only catches the most elementary of cheaters). I don't exactly suppose this, but markworthy activity can be hours or days before the moment of getting marked (reports may take up to 48 hours). You also disregarded the first evidence that was brought up in this thread based on *his games*, not just his behavior.
I'm not even sure if he streamed all of his games, but that's irrelevant too. Sometimes chesscom explicitely demands streamers to have a 2nd body camera. Proctoring requires a lot more than just the game being streamed.

As I emphasized, I was stuck to this gullible self-serving mindset until one year ago, so I can hardly blame people for having it, but I *definitely blame for continued stubbornness when facing rational counterarguments*. Maybe you don't have to get fully convinced that Lichess was right, but *definitely stop attacking its process of action*.

There were several cases in 2021 that made me realize everyone can cheat, and for a fact, I won't treat my own favorite streamers and friends any differently in case one of them gets banned.

One more interesting fact in the "Moritex Case". This is not the first time Moritex had, let's say "issues with cheat detection algorithms" as I personally have no Idea if he cheated or not. There is an old account of him on chesscom, where he was banned 9 years ago. You can still see the account with the fair play ban mark and some of the last games, played, as usual on that platform, against cheaters. And he said in his own video that he had issues with cheat detection software in the FIDE online arena before around 2016-2017, but that they had resolved that.

Opinion: Now personally I find it a bit rude how lichess handles bans/appeals (ignoring if the accused is guilty or not). And I'm not sure to what degree the lichess Terms of Service are let's say absolutely waterproof when it comes to law, but I think lichess is working on that the best they can. The fact that Moritex had issues with cheat detection on 3 different websites in the past does either not speak for his individual case or for the software + the fair play moderators on all websites. So I guess one has to choose whom he trusts more.

I find it sad moritex and lichess parted ways like this, as I personally like both and I think moritex is not cheating in at least 99% of his games, maybe 100%. But, the use of the help of one digital opening book or tablebase just ONCE during (for example) a classic online game is technically enough for a flag.

@Cedur216

Lol! Wer folgt hier einer Ideologie? Und Mortix hat niemanden angestiftet seinen Account zu schließen oder nicht mehr zu spenden. Ganz im Gegenteil. Er hat im besagten Stream und danach dazu aufgerufen das nicht zu tun. Ich wüsste auch nicht wo Moritex rüde gewesen ist. Pack dir an die eigene Nase! Ich habe gelesen was du geschrieben hast. Dazu hatte mich schon ausführlich geäußert.

Und noch mal: Kannst du beweisen, dass Moritex betrogen hat? Legt Lichess Beweise vor? Was andere Portale machen ist mir herzlich egal. Wir sind hier auf Lichess.

Klar ist das mit dem IM eine Spekulation, ich habe nie etwas anderes behauptet. Und? Ich habe mir das Game angesehen. Ist in meinen Studien zu finden. Beide haben die gleichen Werte. Und?

Ich denke auch, dass die Dunkelziffer der zu Unrecht gebannten Leute hier recht hoch ist. Und wenn sich die Leute hier im Forum wegen ihrer Bans beschweren, werden regelrecht Hexenjagden auf sie eröffnet. Und das geht mir voll gegen den Strich. Das ist asozial. Und deswegen bekämpfe ich Leute wie dich. Du schürst, zumindest indirekt, solches asoziales Verhalten.

Du folgst blind Lichess in dieser Sache. Ich nicht. Ich stelle Fragen und stelle falsche Sachen klar. Ich gehe skeptisch an Sachen. Das würde ich dir auch empfehlen.

Du folgst einer Ideologie und meinst Lichess hat mit allem Recht was die Cheat Detection betrifft. Lichess dein Gott!

Ich möchte auch nicht missverstanden werden: Lichess ist eine großartiges Schachportal, aber die Lichess Politik bezüglich der Cheat Detection ist in meinen Augen inquisitorisch. Das prangere ich an.

@Cedur216

Und Lichess gibt selber zu, dass Lichess auch Leute über Klippe springen lassen, die fälschlicherweise des Betruges überführt wurden. Das nennt man dann wohl Kollateralschaden. Kannst du mit Bestimmtheit sagen, dass das bei Moritex nicht der Fall gewesen ist? Könnte doch sein, dass Moritex ein Kollateralschaden ist. Dann hat er jedes Recht sich darüber aufzuregen!