"If France and the United Kingdom had not declared war on Germany, then Germany might have stopped at Poland."
Given what we now know of his plans for France, that's highly unlikely. But even if it were true, I must ask: so what?
So only Polish and Austrian Jews would have been gassed? I believe "just that" would be well worth war to stop.
Sometimes hard men have to weigh the situation and simply stop evil BEFORE it becomes unstoppable. Even if others don't wish to face the truth or acknowledge the evil until it is too late.
And evil really is a bit like obscenity -- good men know it when they see it.
There's nothing ambiguous or relative about torturing and murdering innocent, civilian Jews. It's evil. A bit like killing tens of thousands of peaceful protestors. Or throwing gay people off roof tops for being gay. Such actions don't present debatable questions. Such actions are simply evil.
And I'm not even talking about the "collateral damage" that can occur, despite precautions, when a military or its evil leadership must be ferreted out of civilian areas, making it hard to avoid civilian casualties.
I'm not even talking about the "collateral damage" that occurs when economic features necessary to a war machine are targeted, in order to bring the war machine to a halt. I'm talking about deliberate, twisted, torturing, aggressive murder of innocents, especially by surprise attack during an ostensible peace.
Poland was not at war with Germany on September 1, 1939. Hitler had no legitimate reason to attack on September 1, 1939. He wanted more land and power. And he already had designs on France and Russia both.
That's evil. Let nobody pretend otherwise. And sometimes, evil doesn't just stop itself -- even if it tries to convince the well-meaning that it will.
"that's highly unlikely"
* I believe it was likely. Germany and the Soviet Union took back terrain they had lost from the Versailles Treaty, and the treaty of Brest-Litovsk respectively. France and the United Kingdom declared war on Germany, not on the Soviet Union. France invaded Saarland and the United Kingdom landed the British Expeditionary Force in France. They thus forced Germany to take on France.
"only Polish and Austrian Jews would have been gassed?"
* Shooting and later gassing Jews only started after the invasion of the Soviet Union.
"simply stop evil BEFORE it becomes unstoppable"
* A war is the greater evil.
"Shooting and later gassing Jews only started after the invasion of the Soviet Union."
So what, even if true?
Are you saying the Russians "made him do it" ? Do you think the vicious treatment of Jews by Hitler and his henchmen didn't start till the Russian invasion?
If so, that is simply not true. You would be clearly mistaken if you believed that. and I don't think we should split hairs.
Anti-Jewish pogroms started WELL before Hitler's invasion of Poland. Synagogues were burned, Jewish innocents were ruined and mistreated WELL before the invasion of Poland.
Look up the date of Kristallnacht. It took place on the evening of November 9–10, 1938, when German Nazis attacked Jewish persons and property. That was well BEFORE the invasion of Poland.
And no, war is NOT always the greater evil. Sometimes evil truly must be stopped and not just "negotiated with" or rationalized. Even though, currently, many seem to have forgotten the lessons of the past and seem fashionably willing to tolerate and try to excuse even their own planned destruction.
Lots of excuse making was going on in 1938, too. Many "intellectuals" thought Churchill was just an alarmist. Indeed, they were prematurely overjoyed with the "negotiations" at Munich. They were, as we now know, quite wrong.
And blaming England for Hitler's invasion of France? That's quite wrong, too. It wasn't even the first time such an invasion happened. Ask Belgium. And the plans were laid out well in advance. The history isn't hard to find and study in detail, as I have.
"Do you think the vicious treatment of Jews by Hitler and his henchmen didn't start till the Russian invasion?"
* That is a historical fact. The first concentration camp at Dachau was only for adversaries, not Jews. Jews in France were at first left unharmed. Only after the invasion of the Soviet Union started shootings, like 33,771 at Babi Yar on 29–30 September 1941. As such shootings were traumatizing for the soldiers, they changed to gas.
"Anti-Jewish pogroms started WELL before Hitler's invasion of Poland."
* There were pogroms since middle ages. There were also pogroms in the Soviet Union, Poland, Hungary before Germany. Some Jews fled from Hungary to Germany for pogroms.
"war is NOT always the greater evil"
* Yes it is. Talk to any veteran.
There were anti-Jewish pogroms in Europe before?
So what?
Pogroms aren't just inconveniences to be brushed aside. They are starkly evil.
And as we know FOR CERTAIN in 1938 they CLEARLY foreshadowed the stark, vast, diabolical evil that later followed. Hitler didn't really hide his intentions all that much. Indeed, he wrote of them at length.
You seem to think "any veteran" would agree with your viewpoint. But those who stormed the beaches at Normandy or in Sicily certainly didn't seem to agree. They thought stopping Hitler was WELL worth the suffering and trouble. Indeed, a great many gave up their lives to stop him. Many volunteered for the ordeal and weren't stupid -- they just had moral clarity and a selfless willingness to do what CLEARLY needed to be done.
And that took both courage and an unwillingness to waffle and minimize Hitler's actions. Those men, young as they were, saw the situation clearly enough.
If others wish to disagree, oh, well.
"There were anti-Jewish pogroms in Europe before?"
* Germany was neither the only, nor the first.
The Second World War was neither about pogroms, nor about concentration camps.
"those who stormed the beaches at Normandy or in Sicily"
* The War against Germany was decided at Stalingrad, the War against Japan at Midway.
"The War against Germany was decided at Stalingrad, the War against Japan at Midway."
Again, so what? That simply dodges my real points. And remember, the Soviets agreed, in advance, to partition Poland with Germany. And even that didn't protect them from Hitler. Hitler turned on them, too.
Should they have just given up Moscow to end the war, because war is the ultimate evil? I don't think so.
If Hitler's war machine had NOT been stopped, how MANY more innocents would have been put into the gas chambers?
And the fact that innocent Jews had been mistreated and murdered before, by others, is utterly irrelevant. It is EVIL each time it happens. THAT'S the point.
And I don't believe it's true, at all, that every "veteran" will agree that war is never justified. Sometimes, in fact, the eventual carnage becomes much worse when waffling occurs indefinitely.
Some things HAVE to be stopped, not tolerated or excused.
Sometimes, if a nation or alliance acts decisively and with moral clarity early, cities don't have to later go up in flames.
Poland wasn't even Hitler's first invasion. But Europe proved quite tolerant and reluctant to stop him. Indeed, Europe came VERY close to waiting until it was too late. No doubt under the influence of well-meaning intellectuals who thought everything could be solved with talking and talking and endless paper promises. Indeed, at Munich Neville got lots of reassurances from Hitler's team and came back relieved. Remember?
Did those reassurances REALLY matter? Or did they just buy time for a cynical, dissembling Hitler. We now really DO know the answer.
Apparently, each new generation has to relearn the lessons of the past. But I think most in Israel have learned those lessons pretty clearly. Indeed, those lessons are sometimes necessary for survival.
"if someone acts decisively and with moral clarity early"
* This is a very dangerous excuse for waging wars. There is no holy war, or just war.
WWII German soldiers had on their belts 'God with us!' (Gott mit uns!).
Pope Pius XII blessed the German weapons for the 'just' war against the godless communists of the Soviet Union.
"Poland wasn't even Hitler's first invasion"
* No, Sudetenland, inhabited by Germans and taken away by the Versailles Treaty. Austria joined Germany voluntarily by a referendum, as Austria was no longer a viable country after the Versailles Treaty had taken away its sea access.
"most in Israel have learned those lessons pretty clearly"
* They do now onto the Palestinians, what the Germans did to their ancestors.
We'll agree to disagree.
And on October 7, there was a ceasefire and everybody was at peace.
But, as with Pearl Harbor, when a nation is attacked sometimes a nation has to go after and force the surrender of the government of those who attacked it. America didn't react to Pearl Harbor by doing away with precisely 2,390 souls and then stopping. Instead, America fought the war until Japan's leadership surrendered and Japan could no longer fight.
Playing "tit for tat" when attacked is not how ACTUAL wars are rationally fought once they are started. And, frankly, Pearl Harbor went after military personnel, not innocent teenagers, mothers and babies, deliberately and consciously. As bad as Pearl Harbor was, October 7 was even more repugnant.
Would helping and funding that leadership of Japan back then have shortened the war? Perhaps we should ponder that, since we truly dislike war. But some sometimes seem to brush such questions aside, and find them inconvenient, and view funding and aiding attackers as if that has no significance worth considering.
"on October 7, there was a ceasefire and everybody was at peace"
* But Palestinians, adults and children, were held, tortured and raped in Israeli prisons, e.g. for throwing stones. The rationale for October 7 was to capture hostages, so as to trade them against prisoners. October 7 was evil with 1195 death, but the genocide in Gaza was even more evil with 80,744 death. That is 80 to 1.
"America fought the war until Japan's leadership surrendered and Japan could no longer fight."
* The United States prevailed, but could just as well have lost the war, especially at Midway.
"Playing "tit for tat" when attacked"
* That is the old Jewish 'an eye for an eye'. The Christian way is to turn the other cheek. The Israeli way is 80 eyes for 1 eye. Buddhist monks protested against the United States war against Vietnam, not with bombs, not with suicide bombers, but by setting themselves on fire publicly.
"how ACTUAL wars are rationally fought once they are started"
* A war is irrational. Rational is to end a war.