There are known positions in chess where whoever moves loses.
pawnpusher10,
"initiative is advantage" is a tenet of chess, it is generally correct apart from zugzwang positions, that are pretty rare in fact. If you think that it is incorrect for starting position (i.e. it is zugzwang) it is you who has to prove it, not everyone else has to prove otherwise.
I like your general idea, and I find it interesting to think about, but you did not provide any background for it to expect anyone else to prove a tenet to be correct. That is giving a link to wikipedia with some basic zugzwang positions is not a proof. There are obviously much more positions "proving" that initiative is advantage.
On topic, even though the idea is interesting, somehow I feel that moves like a3/h3/Nf3 are decent candidates for "relatively harmless moves". The moves like c3/d3/e3 are even better here as they allow playing c4/d4/e4 after opponent (almost skipping a turn basically). I find zugzwang to be very improbable here with all these things considered. Idea of "the opportunity to play moves in response" (blacks position) sounds a bit appealing, but not appealing enough to compensate for all that juice playing white offers.
"initiative is advantage" is a tenet of chess, it is generally correct apart from zugzwang positions, that are pretty rare in fact. If you think that it is incorrect for starting position (i.e. it is zugzwang) it is you who has to prove it, not everyone else has to prove otherwise.
I like your general idea, and I find it interesting to think about, but you did not provide any background for it to expect anyone else to prove a tenet to be correct. That is giving a link to wikipedia with some basic zugzwang positions is not a proof. There are obviously much more positions "proving" that initiative is advantage.
On topic, even though the idea is interesting, somehow I feel that moves like a3/h3/Nf3 are decent candidates for "relatively harmless moves". The moves like c3/d3/e3 are even better here as they allow playing c4/d4/e4 after opponent (almost skipping a turn basically). I find zugzwang to be very improbable here with all these things considered. Idea of "the opportunity to play moves in response" (blacks position) sounds a bit appealing, but not appealing enough to compensate for all that juice playing white offers.
"Initiative is advantage" is called a circular argument.
Do you actually read the complete comments?
"There are known positions in chess where whoever moves loses."
There are known positions in chess where whoever moves second loses.
There are known positions in chess where whoever moves second loses.
This is a very interesting question. I think the best anwer is we don't know, but it's extremely unlikely that black should win from the starting position (and it's also unlikely for white to have a forced win).
The games you showed as forced second player wins are ones where it's obviously a disadvantage to have the first move, for example:
Sim - the first player who creates a triangle loses - obviously the first player who moves is more likely to be the first player to create a triangle
Chopsticks - similar argument
Also the games where the first player wins are (usually) ones where it's obviously an advantage to have the first move.
Chess is not like any of these games. The closest game in nature to chess which has already been solved is checkers - and it's a draw as one would expect - the first player has the initiative but the second player can defend. If we ever solve chess (i don't think it's gonna happen before we colonize the Milky Way) i expect the same result as for checkers - a draw
The games you showed as forced second player wins are ones where it's obviously a disadvantage to have the first move, for example:
Sim - the first player who creates a triangle loses - obviously the first player who moves is more likely to be the first player to create a triangle
Chopsticks - similar argument
Also the games where the first player wins are (usually) ones where it's obviously an advantage to have the first move.
Chess is not like any of these games. The closest game in nature to chess which has already been solved is checkers - and it's a draw as one would expect - the first player has the initiative but the second player can defend. If we ever solve chess (i don't think it's gonna happen before we colonize the Milky Way) i expect the same result as for checkers - a draw
#1 : about solved games : en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solved_game
Here is my proof: if white is zugzwanged he will lose. in theory if you play well you cant lose. so making the notion "Prove that the starting chess position isn't zugzwang for white" has been done.
People, stop feeding the troll.
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