@KNIGHT_c4 said in #36:
> France doesn't have an air force?
You said "troops". Now it's aircraft, is it? Will they fly just round the edges of Ukraine? Or will they boldly fly into the middle bits? I expect the Russians will be terrified whatever your answer is.
@stockwellpete said in #41:
>... I expect the Russians will be terrified whatever your answer is.
Aren't the Russians already terrified by The Donald?
@botliquor4547 said in #42:
> Aren't the Russians already terrified by The Donald?
Nah, they think he has gone "kooky". lol
@what_game_is_this said in #40:
> Why should a people accept to suffer under a 'sphere of influence'?
>
<snip>
Reminds me of an exchange from that Britcom, "Yes, Prime Minister":
"Whose country is it anyway, ours or the Americans'?"
"There are 2 schools of thought, and I admit that I hold to the minority opinion. I like to think it's ours"
I'm guessing there is a much stronger nationalist sentiment in Ukraine today than in the UK.
Maybe Spain will join the fray --brave lads!
@Decaffeinated said in #31:
> So, then let me rephrase that:
>
> NATO nations have sponsored & materially supported a government that has hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of Ukrainian men into a hopeless situation where they are killed, physically maimed, or psychologically damaged for life, in a war that they are losing to the Russians, who incur less casualites, and as a proportion of their nation far less casualties... and Ukraine will be losing more land in this war than they would have had they made peace right away when it kicked off in 2022.
>
> ... Or how would YOU phrase it?
>
> It is important to me that the Western states that set up Ukraine to do all this dying for their geopolitical aims are held accountable.
Love this argument that somehow due to supporting Ukranians in their defense and giving them a fighting chance - the west is responsible for all of the casualties and somehow forcing them to fight.
Like they would've just given up without the west - just meekly rolled over cause they 'didn't stand a chance' - and peace would've won with Russia's easy conquest! Or not taken as many casualties, or have signed peace treaties that they can't now cause the US forces them not to.
If I were in the shoes of a Ukranian defender, I would be grateful for the western arms, as I'm sure they are.
@stockwellpete said in #30:
>And if they were unfortunate to be living in Ukraine, then they are probably in a trench somewhere, or are already or wounded. The middle class of Ukraine substantially legged it into western Europe when the war started. So working class families in Ukraine have paid a terrible price for USA adventurism in eastern Europe. And the war is almost certainly lost now.
What they paid for was Russian/soviet irredentism.
Thing is that really falls apart about this argument, is that the US never had to lift a single finger to convince any of those countries to join NATO, many were immediately moving on their own to align with the west upon independence - it was an act of survival against a country that they fear and have no trust towards.
The only sad part is that Ukraine had the distinctly unfortunate position of being the last viable country in the Europe for Russia to attack that wasn't under protection of the west.
@salmon_rushdie said in #46:
> Love this argument that somehow due to supporting Ukranians in their defense and giving them a fighting chance - the west is responsible for all of the casualties and somehow forcing them to fight.
> Like they would've just given up without the west - just meekly rolled over cause they 'didn't stand a chance' - and peace would've won with Russia's easy conquest! Or not taken as many casualties, or have signed peace treaties that they can't now cause the US forces them not to.> If I were in the shoes of a Ukranian defender, I would be grateful for the western arms, as I'm sure they are.
The USA does not care one iota about the Ukrainians. They are just the latest proxies they are using to try and weaken Russia. And they are failing miserably. But good old western liberals, the cheerleaders for, and the acolytes of, the US empire want more weapons sent there so that even more Ukrainians will die and more Ukrainian families will be smashed up. How wonderful.
@stockwellpete said in #48:
> The USA does not care one iota about the Ukrainians. They are just the latest proxies they are using to try and weaken Russia. And they are failing miserably. But good old western liberals, the cheerleaders for, and the acolytes of, the US empire want more weapons sent there so that even more Ukrainians will die and more Ukrainian families will be smashed up. How wonderful.
So if your country was being invaded, ala Ukraine - would you prefer no one send aid so your country gets rolled over as fast as possible to save lives? Is it super important someone sending you aid personally cares about you? Or are weapons sent out of pragmatism just as useful as those sent out of good will?
Maybe a little sudetenland action to appease Putin would've been more up your alley?
Are Ukranians suddenly going to not die and give up if the US doesn't send weapons?
You know- people when invaded by foreign countries, tend to fight for their lives. If Ukraine did "lose" quickly - my bet is they would be fighting a pitched guerilla war for decades.
Why do you automatically assume they act with no sovereignty or autonomy?
@salmon_rushdie said in #47:
> What they paid for was Russian/soviet irredentism.
The Soviet Union ended 35 years ago and it is not coming back. And the idea that Russian armies intend to start rolling across Europe again is risible. They have taken three years to conquer the Donbass! There was no need for this war. America wanted it and now they have got it. This is all about how the USA can remain the global hegemon. Nothing more, nothing less.
> Thing is that really falls apart about this argument, is that the US never had to lift a single finger to convince any of those countries to join NATO, many were immediately moving on their own to align with the west upon independence - it was an act of survival against a country that they fear and have no trust towards. The only sad part is that Ukraine had the distinctly unfortunate position of being the last viable country in the Europe for Russia to attack that wasn't under protection of the west.
But Ukraine is not like most of the other east European countries. Its relationship to Russia and its history is completely different and much more closely entwined. It is not like Hungary or Romania. The elites of those countries have calculated there are financial advantages for them if they join the EU rather than stay outside and if they shelter under the NATO umbrella - but in doing this they have given up the right to an independent foreign policy and are now effectively vassals of Washington. And the bill for this dubious privilege has just gone up to 5% of GDP by 2035.
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