Hi everybody. So I have been playing here for about a year, a recent spurt of games in Rated. I'm still pretty bad (~1000). I am nice to everybody and usually play 10/15 minute games so I have time to analyze. I chat if they want. Anyway, today I played with someone not much better than me and they made a dumb move. So they proposed a takeback. Sure, OK, why not. A couple of moves later they made another dumb move. And asked for another takeback. I declined and texted "You already had one." Sure enough, I beat them. And then they send me a FU for my trouble.
I don't know the proper etiquette for such things. Is it usual to give as many takebacks as someone asks for? (Not that the other person was worried about etiquette either, clearly.) Nothing like getting cursed out on New Year's Day by some chessbot to get your year started right.
Anyway. Did I do anything wrong? (I didn't reply to the FU either, I just let it drop.) Thank you. And Happy New Year to the rest of you!
You already have better etiquette than 90% of the lichess community, including me. Most don't even touch the takeback button, so you accepting one is already very generous. If you really are worried about proper etiquette, here's my criteria:
Accept if:
- an obvious mouseslip
Decline if:
- obvious dropped mate
- if mouseslipped piece is very far away from intended.
Best way to decide is thru chat. If they bring a decent argument to the table, I would accept. Most of the time they don't even defend their case, so I decline.
In a casual game I'm usually fine with granting a takeback, but I won't ask for one myself. In a rated game it's no takebacks.
This was a Rated game and the person had asked for a second takeback that I declined before saying FU to me. I even a couple of days ago was playing a Rated game against someone who was running out of time so I gave him some more time and then he beat me! But I didn't mind that ... he was nice and modest.
Regarding the NoobBatter criteria above (thanks for those), I'm not sure I am sharp enough to accurately determine them quickly enough. Anyway thanks for your thoughts, both of you!
Just disable takebacks for rated games
No good reason to give takebacks or ask for them. It merely supports bad habits in play. Better for the person to take the result and live with it. A better lesson. Above all, don't start doubting yourself. It is completely your choice and absolutely rude and unsportsmanlike for anyone to complain, much less with profanity. if you say no. It's only a worthwhile and valid game if we follow the rules.
TLDR: "If every single game of chess that you play, from now on, somehow had your opponent glitch a piece against you...how long would it take you to beg for a takeback rule just so that you could finally enjoy a good game of actual chess again?
This thought experiment annihilates a massive amount of obfuscation and gas-lighting around this matter."
Case For Allowing Takebacks on Blunders/Bad Moves:
None. That's not chess.
Case For Allowing Takebacks on obvious Glitches/Slips:
1. Granting takebacks is an excellent way to make friends and improve the Lichess community.
2. People will be more likely to 'pay it forward' and repeat that same experience and prove good-faith, grace, friendship, camaraderie, courtesy, civility, and kinship with others in return. Lichess becomes more tight-knit and personal than it otherwise would.
3. It's a waste of time to finish a game where a computer glitch effected the moves instead of the intentions of the players.
4. Glitches are a pestilence that have destroyed many a chess game. They are a necessary evil of online/computer play. Chess players sit down to play chess, not exploit glitches. This was the reason for creating the takeback rule for computer play. It makes very good sense to use it.
5. Taking advantage of glitches that are a necessary evil due only to the nature of computer/online play, is a terrible precedent to set, and it is a slippery slope that ends with the destruction of online chess altogether. It is better to stick as close as possible to the spirit of chess.
6. The idea that there could be an 8-year-old girl on the other side of that internet connection who is feeling completely deflated because her father isn't too concerned about a mouse that automatically glitches every now and again, and hasn't yet figured out the "2-Click" option or "Move Confirmation" option, should give you pause to consider making use of the takeback function on glitches/slips.
7. The idea that there could be an 8-year-old girl on the other side of that internet connection who just lost a parent, should give you pause to consider making use of the takeback function on glitches/slips.
8. It takes big character to be outplayed and face a losing position where you can steal a win that you didn't earn; but instead, allowing the takeback and playing through in the game's justified variation.
9. You can't keep points that you didn't earn. If you face 10 glitches/slips in a row, you're not actually magically playing at a level that is 50-100 points better. You will immediately be returned to your objective rating bracket because you are playing people that are in a much higher rating bracket.
10. Barring time trouble, immediate takeback requests (less than 2 seconds) indicate an obvious good-faith intention that it was indeed a slip. Ratifying these instances almost always makes good sense, even if the glitch/slip was not obvious.
11. If every single game of chess that you play, from now on, somehow had your opponent glitch a piece against you...how long would it take you to beg for a takeback rule just so that you could finally have a good game of chess again? This thought experiment annihilates a massive amount of obfuscation and gas-lighting around the matter.
12. Many people make use of the takeback function. The more who have it enabled, the more games of chess can be saved from needless and unintended destruction. The more who have it enabled, the less wasting of time from destroyed games for meaningless points occurs.
Case For Not Allowing Takebacks on obvious Glitches/Slips:
1. I've had people ask for takebacks in very sharp positions in hopes that they can convince me that they made an error, where I might then spend minutes of time, that I don't have, looking for their mistake. People abuse the system.
2. I've had people ask for takebacks in very sharp positions in hopes that they can distract me into taking time to consider whether it was somehow a slip or not, and if I should allow the takeback, and if I should take time in chat to explain, "I enjoy allowing takebacks, but only on obvious slips/glitches."
3. When your opponent only has a minute or two left on the clock and you can't be sure if it was a slip or blunder or time pressure, it becomes tough to understand that situation. Should you be the only one losing from bad moves in time pressure?
Further, what constitutes "time trouble"? Everyone knows it's a pain to decide where that should start and stop; especially since it varies depending on the position. Also, trying to take your mind off of the game in order to decide if time trouble caused your opponent to glitch or not, is a hassle in and of itself.
4. When you only have a minute or two left on the clock, and your opponent is asking for a takeback on a move that may or may not be a glitch/slip/time pressure/blunder, it's not correct that you should have to take time out to consider the legitimacy of your opponent's claim. Not all slips are completely obvious. Not all blunders are completely obvious.
At least, it's still a distraction that has definitely cost many losses that otherwise would not have occurred. If we're going to argue that people have the right to play their intended move unimpeded, then that same argument somewhat extends to the pestilence of "Takeback" notifications in the middle of a think.
5. Nothing is a proper slap in the face, like when you allow the last 17 takebacks due to obvious slips, only to have game 18, 19 and 20 all have their own slips?/blunders?/time-trouble?/glitches?, where you decide not to allow those takebacks, and where they then scream at you in the chat and make you wonder if you're possibly playing against silicon as punishment.
6. It can be very irritating to do the right thing with others, and then have people not grant you the takeback when it's your turn to have a game saved from glitches/slips. Simply turning off the takebacks does solve this highly irritating situation.
7. Given the issues between 1 through 6, it can be granted if chess players simply say, "Look. I just want to sit down and concentrate on my game. Sometimes I might slip, sometimes my opponent might slip, it's an unfortunate waste of time, but it's the price that we pay for online chess. Allowing takebacks comes with it's own set of headaches, so I'd rather just turn them off and play chess."
My way of thinking:
- Glitches happen very very rarely. (Once every few months or weeks depending on how much you play.)
- Most times glitches and slips are obvious enough and require almost no thought. I very rarely deny them. I very rarely am denied.
- For all of the good that it does, it's hardly an issue to go ahead and allow takebacks.
- It would be different if I had to deal with the issue every second game. But since it's every second month, it's really no big deal. I'm confident that I've played 100 straight without my opponent or myself having had glitched.
- There are many many many people out there who will gladly allow you a takeback. The number may very well be in the majority. It's definitely my prerogative and privilege to add to that majority. I wouldn't have it any other way.
Tips:
- In your preferences page, users can select all kinds of different selection options.
For the common mouse glitch issue, selecting "Click Twice" instead of "Click and Drag" should fix that issue.
- In your preferences page, the option to "Confirm Move" also exists. If anyone has issues that make it impossible to place their pieces correctly, then this might be a great solution for some people.
- If your opponent glitches/slips, it makes good sense to let them know about these first two tips. It's possible that they are plagued with regular glitches, but haven't yet found out that they can change their settings to fix some of their problems.
- Be courteous! It's better for everyone.
But how do you find mouseslips that are not so obvious but you cant ask your opponent their intended move or that is cheating?
I allowed takebacks before, but I was often disappointed :
- Opponents asking for 2, 3 or more takeback in a single game
- I accept his but he refuses mine
- "FU" if you decline
- Opponent thinking you're supposed to takeback all his mistakes until he wins the game
I was fed-up with thinking, I simply unabled takebacks and playing chess at low-level is now infinitely better.
Mouseslip is part of the game. Imagine a footballer saying, oh, let me take it over. I meant to hit it with my instep into the upper right corner, but instead, gosh, I hit with my inside straight into the keeper. Let's take that again.
