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Italian - The Modern 5.Nc3

#2

Two remarks:

  1. Variations with 6...d6 and 9...d5 seem fundamentally wrong: why waste a tempo, as black?
  2. After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out.
    https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844
Two remarks: 1) Variations with 6...d6 and 9...d5 seem fundamentally wrong: why waste a tempo, as black? 2) After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out. https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844
#3

@tpr said in #2:

  1. After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out.
    https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844

Iirc Bg5 isn’t the move recommended here against Bronstein’s 5...d6, but 6.Na4. Unless I missed the variation you were actually talking about?

@tpr said in #2: > 2) After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out. > https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844 Iirc Bg5 isn’t the move recommended here against Bronstein’s 5...d6, but 6.Na4. Unless I missed the variation you were actually talking about?
#4

@tpr said in #2:

Two remarks:

  1. Variations with 6...d6 and 9...d5 seem fundamentally wrong: why waste a tempo, as black?
  2. After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out.
    https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844

Hi tpr, thanks for your remarks!

  1. Black was unable to play d7-d5 in one go as the pawn would simply be captured. Only after having developed some more pieces Black was able to justifiedly play ...d5. I believe we cannot consider this approach "fundamentally wrong". It would mean that we should for example also consider 5.d3 in The Italian (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3) fundamentally wrong. It makes perfect sense as the immediate 5.d4 is inferior due to concrete reasons (5...exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+).
  2. Cool, thanks for pointing out Bronstein's ...Na5 idea. I don't agree with your statement that Black "should (after 5...d6 6.Bg5) play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5". As I believe both are perfectly fine. Btw, Bronstein's ...Na5 can also be played in the 6...h6 line: 5...d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 and now 9...Na5! (or 9...a6).
@tpr said in #2: > Two remarks: > 1) Variations with 6...d6 and 9...d5 seem fundamentally wrong: why waste a tempo, as black? > 2) After 6 Bg5 black should play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5 as Bronstein pointed out. > https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1033844 Hi tpr, thanks for your remarks! 1. Black was unable to play d7-d5 in one go as the pawn would simply be captured. Only after having developed some more pieces Black was able to justifiedly play ...d5. I believe we cannot consider this approach "fundamentally wrong". It would mean that we should for example also consider 5.d3 in The Italian (1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Bc5 4.c3 Nf6 5.d3) fundamentally wrong. It makes perfect sense as the immediate 5.d4 is inferior due to concrete reasons (5...exd4 6.cxd4 Bb4+). 2. Cool, thanks for pointing out Bronstein's ...Na5 idea. I don't agree with your statement that Black "should (after 5...d6 6.Bg5) play not 6...h6 but 6...Na5". As I believe both are perfectly fine. Btw, Bronstein's ...Na5 can also be played in the 6...h6 line: 5...d6 6.Bg5 h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 and now 9...Na5! (or 9...a6).
#5

@UpInTempo138 said in #3:

said in #2:

True, after 5...d6 my recommendation is 6.Na4. Maybe tpr was referring to my comment on 5...a6 6.Be3 in the analysis "In case of 5...a6 and 5...d6 I want to stay away from Bg5 lines. The a6+d6 setup is a perfect antidote to the Bg5 lines (see my explanation in 5...0-0 where we do play 6.Bg5!)." which sort of implies that against 5...d6 I don't recommend 6.Bg5 because of 6...h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 a6 (a setup which Black can't get in time if he starts with 5...0-0).

@UpInTempo138 said in #3: > said in #2: True, after 5...d6 my recommendation is 6.Na4. Maybe tpr was referring to my comment on 5...a6 6.Be3 in the analysis "In case of 5...a6 and 5...d6 I want to stay away from Bg5 lines. The a6+d6 setup is a perfect antidote to the Bg5 lines (see my explanation in 5...0-0 where we do play 6.Bg5!)." which sort of implies that against 5...d6 I don't recommend 6.Bg5 because of 6...h6 7.Bxf6 Qxf6 8.Nd5 Qd8 9.c3 a6 (a setup which Black can't get in time if he starts with 5...0-0).
#7

Playing d6 and then a later d5 is not necessarily fundamentally wrong, and in fact ivanchuk played such an idea before. I forget who the opponent is, but d5 was played within a few moves which was surprising at the time but it was to take advantage of white's particular set up.

Playing d6 and then a later d5 is not necessarily fundamentally wrong, and in fact ivanchuk played such an idea before. I forget who the opponent is, but d5 was played within a few moves which was surprising at the time but it was to take advantage of white's particular set up.
#8

@Tinhau said in #7:

Playing d6 and then a later d5 is not necessarily fundamentally wrong, and in fact ivanchuk played such an idea before. I forget who the opponent is, but d5 was played within a few moves which was surprising at the time but it was to take advantage of white's particular set up.

Thanks for pointing this out! Maybe Torre,E - Ivanchuk,V (Biel 1989)? 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Bb3 d6 7. c3 d5.

@Tinhau said in #7: > Playing d6 and then a later d5 is not necessarily fundamentally wrong, and in fact ivanchuk played such an idea before. I forget who the opponent is, but d5 was played within a few moves which was surprising at the time but it was to take advantage of white's particular set up. Thanks for pointing this out! Maybe Torre,E - Ivanchuk,V (Biel 1989)? 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bc4 Nf6 4. d3 Be7 5. O-O O-O 6. Bb3 d6 7. c3 d5.
#9

Ah yes! Nice find! I remember my old coach (GM) explained d5 is more effective after c3 because now d3 is weakened if exd5, whereas d5 immediately used to be thought as not so good with the pawn still on c2 because black does not get play against d3 pawn (nowadays 4.d5 is a trendy/serious line of course). He pointed to this Ivanchuk game as a surprising idea of even "wasting" a tempo to achieve that structure

Ah yes! Nice find! I remember my old coach (GM) explained d5 is more effective after c3 because now d3 is weakened if exd5, whereas d5 immediately used to be thought as not so good with the pawn still on c2 because black does not get play against d3 pawn (nowadays 4.d5 is a trendy/serious line of course). He pointed to this Ivanchuk game as a surprising idea of even "wasting" a tempo to achieve that structure
#10

Thanks for this article, which inspired me to take a closer look at this unpleasant line for black.

In your main line, better seems to be 11...Nb4 which has already been played (also before castling). Instead of releasing the tension, black prepares ...d5 taking back with a knight, which threatens the Ne3 fork.

In most games, white answered 12.Ne2, which is not the only playable move. The game can then continue 12...d5 13.exd5 Nbxd5 14. Rf3 and now black has the temporary pawn sacrifice 14...b5! After 15.axb5 axb5 16.Bxb5 (16.Rxa8 Qxa8 also wins the pawn back on b2 or e3 after Qa5-b6) 16...Qd6! 17.Bc4 Qb6 18.Nf1 Qxb2 19.Rb1 Nc3! 20.Nxc3 Qxc3 21.Bxe6 fxe6 22.e4 c5 the position is even, because on 23.Nd2 Black has 23...Ra2 and on 23.Ne3 they have 23...c4.

Here is the browsable line:

https://lichess.org/awBkl6YB#22

Thanks for this article, which inspired me to take a closer look at this unpleasant line for black. In your main line, better seems to be 11...Nb4 which has already been played (also before castling). Instead of releasing the tension, black prepares ...d5 taking back with a knight, which threatens the Ne3 fork. In most games, white answered 12.Ne2, which is not the only playable move. The game can then continue 12...d5 13.exd5 Nbxd5 14. Rf3 and now black has the temporary pawn sacrifice 14...b5! After 15.axb5 axb5 16.Bxb5 (16.Rxa8 Qxa8 also wins the pawn back on b2 or e3 after Qa5-b6) 16...Qd6! 17.Bc4 Qb6 18.Nf1 Qxb2 19.Rb1 Nc3! 20.Nxc3 Qxc3 21.Bxe6 fxe6 22.e4 c5 the position is even, because on 23.Nd2 Black has 23...Ra2 and on 23.Ne3 they have 23...c4. Here is the browsable line: https://lichess.org/awBkl6YB#22