The Ukrainian Genocide

@MaciekLu said in #40:
> I don't want to get into a political discussion, I'm staying *neutral*.

if you do not want political discussion what are you doing in this thread?!

@bfchessguy said in #41:
> if you do not want political discussion what are you doing in this thread?!
...
cause you and the other people made me respond, while I was explaining a person that it's inappropriate to insult someone.

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #24:
> You forgot to mention the Americans added conditions to any aid. The marshal plan, aids into the former eastern block, every 'aid' the Americans offered was linked with conditions. Conditions China could not have accepted, whereas china's unofficial condition is acceptable.

The marshal plan was aid to western europe after wwii. What does that have to do with bush giving food to starving chinese?

> Yes. China improves their citizen's lives and helps people around the globe. The west has never done that. China sends money into regions, America sends troops.
Prove how? Again, Bush wanted to send food to starving chinese. China refused. Are you claiming that the west never sends money and humanitarian aid anywhere? You say this with a straight face?

> Oh. I see. So sending troops into foreign countries is not against human rights, but blocking YouTube because Youtube blocks Chinese videos certainly is.
Who said that? Clearly Russia is violating human rights as we speak by invading Ukraine. Americans have protested the war in Iraq and it will be a black stain on our history forever. Two wrongs don't make a right. That is evil thinking.

> You are basically arguing because they restricted foreign propaganda, they are 100% bad even though western news ban Chinese and russian stuff as well.
Yes both sides have censorship and propaganda. But on one side you can peacfully protest in the streets without fear of death or prison time.

> Go back to reality.
> Who spends millions into poor countries? China.
> Who gives million people jobs? China.
> Who sends troops into sovereign countries around the globe and makes life harder for everyone? The west.
My friend. the same can be said of you. First, the US sends more money and jobs into the world including into China themselves! Secondly, Russia is threatening world destruction as we speak. Again, our people don't forgive our government for the invasion of Iraq. And Trump was their punishment. But Trump was also voted out, because we don't want a dictator like Putin in our country.

@bfchessguy said in #34:
> Each time I start using phrases like this or "... is this racist ..." or "I ain't racist though..." it raises an Alarm that it's time to take a pause and do some editing before clicking on the button. ;-)
So... You think the forums are there in order to offend each other?

@FC-in-the-UK said in #38:
> Let's be real. Those "millions of jobs" are actually exploited under-paid workers crafting "made in China" products for the West.
Let us be real, not only do these workers only work for western imperialistic companies, but they work there because they can find no better job. Simply banning American imperialists will not help if people have no money at all.
> These millions of jobs are only there because China is willing to have lower wages than other countries, making it profitable for Western companies to outsource their production there.
Nope, these millions are there because these imperialist countries have exploited China up until 49, when the new government kicked out imperialism and finally allowed the people to live a secure life. however, 150 years of suppression left it's mark on the economy, and had they not industrialized, they would have been eaten by the US just the way the US destroyed all hopes by the Korean people to find unity outside of suppression. May it be because macarthur was fired or may it be because of the millions heros risking their lives in order to save their family back home from exploitation is not what we discuss here. And nowadays, in this world where exploitation rules, the wages were the best the Communist government could have done.

> China is not "giving job to people", it is willingly letting its people being exploited. For Chinese leaders as well as for Western companies it's a win-win situation. And as usual, it's the people, the basic disposable workers, that pay the price of it.
OK, now imagine China putting higher wages into law. Do you think these companies will simply pay more? They will run to places like India and eastpakistan and nothing will change, except for China having to feed millions of hungry people without wages. China has not yet got enough industry to pay the ones exploited. Why else do you think China has not banned Apple just the way America has unfairly banned Huawei? But things are going to change. China is building highspeed trains and is going to liberate the starving populations.

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #44:
> So... You think the forums are there in order to offend each other?
>
>
> Let us be real, not only do these workers only work for western imperialistic companies, but they work there because they can find no better job. Simply banning American imperialists will not help if people have no money at all.

So you admit the west gives them jobs.

> Nope, these millions are there because these imperialist countries have exploited China up until 49, when the new government kicked out imperialism and finally allowed the people to live a secure life. however, 150 years of suppression left it's mark on the economy, and had they not industrialized, they would have been eaten by the US just the way the US destroyed all hopes by the Korean people to find unity outside of suppression. May it be because macarthur was fired or may it be because of the millions heros risking their lives in order to save their family back home from exploitation is not what we discuss here. And nowadays, in this world where exploitation rules, the wages were the best the Communist government could have done.
You mean exploited by their own government. This is one of the problems with the strive for pure capitalism or socialism. Most of the world has evolved, Chinese people are exploited because they choose to live in the past. Its outdated like the dark ages.

> OK, now imagine China putting higher wages into law. Do you think these companies will simply pay more? They will run to places like India and eastpakistan and nothing will change, except for China having to feed millions of hungry people without wages. China has not yet got enough industry to pay the ones exploited. Why else do you think China has not banned Apple just the way America has unfairly banned Huawei? But things are going to change. China is building highspeed trains and is going to liberate the starving populations.

Our own country has higher wages into law. How do we manage? Yes, lots of people are starving in china. But how is high speed trains going to help them? Huawei was banned because they are part of an authoratarian regime. And were circumventing sanctions by providing spy equipment to north korea and iran, leaders who are constantly threatening war against the west. If China was to provide aid to Russia for the Ukraine war, you will be crying about alot more then Huawei my friend.

Again, wwiii is on the horizon. Nuclear world destruction is a real threat, and you are simply in denial.

@CooloutAC said in #43:
> The marshal plan was aid to western europe after wwii. What does that have to do with bush giving food to starving chinese?
Ww1 destroyed Europe. Colonialism destroyed China.
The Marschal plan was linked with the countries supporting the US. The offers by the US were so too.

> Prove how? Again, Bush wanted to send food to starving chinese. China refused. Are you claiming that the west never sends money and humanitarian aid anywhere? You say this with a straight face?
Nope. But China does more. And instead of exploiting the local population, China actually gives them the ability to find good jobs. Unlike Apple and all these companies who lock their windows in order to prevent people from committing suicide.

> Who said that? Clearly Russia is violating human rights as we speak by invading Ukraine. Americans have protested the war in Iraq and it will be a black stain on our history forever. Two wrongs don't make a right. That is evil thinking.
Aha! So America indeed was wrong! I do not remember any country sanctioning the US, though. And BTW, the US has invaded more countries than the russians.
Yes, human rights are violated, but my whole argument is not if humans should die in Ukraine, but instead, who was responsible for it, or, who could have changed this tragedy.

> Yes both sides have censorship and propaganda. But on one side you can peacfully protest in the streets without fear of death or prison time.
Yes. Ever heard of pro-Russian protests in Donezk and Luhansk? And how they were shot? And all those brave people willing to say their opinion? The guy named Schröder? Yes, Russia and China have problems with revolutionaries, but not only do all countries have? (my favorite Whataboutism!)

> My friend. the same can be said of you. First, the US sends more money and jobs into the world including into China themselves!
more? Please, tell me these America jobs. Would you want to work in one of them? I once visited China myself, and I can tell you, the impression I got and the people I was able to talk to certainly were not exploited by Chinese companies. Of course, this is only one trip, and America will not want anyone to see stuff, but please, tell me Apple is NOT exploiting anyone straight into the face. Then we will see.

>Secondly, Russia is threatening world destruction as we speak.
Yes. This indeed is tragic. Only that this was necessary to stop other countries from coming to the government's aid. Again, I do not say this military operation is allowed to kill. All I say is that it was not solely russia's fault.
>Again, our people don't forgive our government for the invasion of Iraq. And Trump was their punishment. But Trump was also voted out, because we don't want a dictator like Putin in our country.
What do you have against trump?

@CooloutAC said in #45:
> So you admit the west gives them jobs.
Yes they give them jobs. Only if these jobs are are imperialistic. And they certainly are.
> You mean exploited by their own government. This is one of the problems with the strive for pure capitalism or socialism. Most of the world has evolved, Chinese people are exploited because they choose to live in the past. Its outdated like the dark ages.
What do you mean? It is like the dark ages because China was exploited by the west. But China is about to recover. It is going to get better and better.

> Our own country has higher wages into law. How do we manage?
Because we are imperialists and also because we destroyed other countries in order to advance our own. And we did not pay back meaningful compensation for the millions killed during the ages of old-style colonialism. And we never paid a penny for those wanting to make lives better. We have the money and we have the ability to exploit.
> Yes, lots of people are starving in china. But how is high speed trains going to help them?
They are not currently. But soon, China will be able to get it's citizens out of poverty. Except that Huawei was unfairly pushed away by the USA.
> Huawei was banned because they are part of an authoratarian regime.
Same imperialist lies going around all day. You say that Huawei is part of government even though it is not proven and yet keep buying all the products exploited in China. Banning Huawei is as incorrect and against law as the russian special military operation, at least.
> And were circumventing sanctions by providing spy equipment to north korea and iran, leaders who are constantly threatening war against the west.
Oh, so you build missiles pointed at them and ask them to be nice to you? Also, please prove that Huawei has been doing that. Also, do you think North Korea will not get any equipment anymore, because some jerk millions of miles away unfairly banned one company? Do you think Huawei cannot produce anything anymore because it has been unfairly blocked by the US?
> If China was to provide aid to Russia for the Ukraine war, you will be crying about alot more then Huawei my friend.
Oh, so you send 'volunteers' into Ukraine and still say China should not be able to do so, too?
> Again, wwiii is on the horizon. Nuclear world destruction is a real threat, and you are simply in denial.
Ohhhhhhh! So that is why they banned Huawei! That is why they placed their missiles at sovereign nations! That is why they keep invading neutral countries! I see. Then tell your government they do not achieve peace by doing so.

@bfchessguy said in #33:
> So pretending rossia is giving money without even a small condition,
When have I said that? All I say is China is currently helping citizens escape suppression in a way the west never has done.
> pretending China is improving life of their citizens and many countries in the world without imposing condition when on the same time you're doing the opposite each time the money or help is coming from the West? Is this treating others with respect?
When is 'each time'? Because they needed sovereignty fifty years ago?

> MrBuild-a_Wall - who funnily is pretending to live in the West and not experiencing this so nice way of life from the inside (in rossia, China, north korea and syria) - is cherry picking the targets of his whataboutism propaganda. Is this treating others with respect?
Funnily, I did get to experience stuff in China and North Korea. The part with the so called propaganda is not understood by my, though.

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #46:
> Ww1 destroyed Europe. Colonialism destroyed China.
> The Marschal plan was linked with the countries supporting the US. The offers by the US were so too.

And? Is there a point? Again, the marshal plan was aid to europe after world war. And i'm not sure what that has to do with Bush wanting to give food to starving chinese and china refusing.

> Nope. But China does more. And instead of exploiting the local population, China actually gives them the ability to find good jobs. Unlike Apple and all these companies who lock their windows in order to prevent people from committing suicide.

By your own admission they depend on the west for jobs. But you say it is the west exploiting them and China is at their mercy. My friend, the chinese people are at the mercy of their own governments backward ways.

> Aha! So America indeed was wrong! I do not remember any country sanctioning the US, though. And BTW, the US has invaded more countries than the russians.
That is debatable. Lets not Forget Russia invaded Afghanistan first. But yes, America was indeed wrong for invading Iraq. Absolutely. Two wrongs don't make a right, and its not justification for Russia. That is evil thinking. Time to break the cycle for all world people.

> Yes, human rights are violated, but my whole argument is not if humans should die in Ukraine, but instead, who was responsible for it, or, who could have changed this tragedy.
Ask yourself who is directly responsible for it. Unless someone puts a gun to your hand and makes you do something. Unlike the conscripted soldiers, Leaders and people have a choice.

> Yes. Ever heard of pro-Russian protests in Donezk and Luhansk? And how they were shot? And all those brave people willing to say their opinion? The guy named Schröder? Yes, Russia and China have problems with revolutionaries, but not only do all countries have? (my favorite Whataboutism!)
Again, two wrongs don't make a right. That is evil thinking. Break out of the cycle and don't fall for that trap. Here and what we do now is what matters.

> more? Please, tell me these America jobs. Would you want to work in one of them? I once visited China myself, and I can tell you, the impression I got and the people I was able to talk to certainly were not exploited by Chinese companies. Of course, this is only one trip, and America will not want anyone to see stuff, but please, tell me Apple is NOT exploiting anyone straight into the face. Then we will see.
Absolutely not. Chinese and Indians, and for that matter the South Americans in the US, are the modern day slaves. Similar to the factory workers under capitalism and socialism of the past. And i'm not saying the west is not to be blamed for exploiting them, but you must understand it is also happening because they are exploited by their own governments. Life would unfortunately be worse for them otherwise. But I will say the Indians are rapidly evolving and modernizing. I think they will soon be on par with the west of the western world as long as they don't lose their direction.

> Yes. This indeed is tragic. Only that this was necessary to stop other countries from coming to the government's aid. Again, I do not say this military operation is allowed to kill. All I say is that it was not solely russia's fault.
Of course its not solely russias fault. But the killing of these people for no reason should not be defended under any circumstances. Especially when it can lead the death of us all.

> What do you have against trump?

To be honest I had nothing against his governmental policies. But he is a wannabe Putin. He constantly encouraged divisiveness and racial hatred instead of unity. Systematically tried to destroy all our institutions. And When he used military soldiers against peaceful protesters on the capital, that was the beginning of his end. Even if he runs again the majority of the people will not for him. Especially after he encouraged insurrection after planning a coup by replacing his top generals and pentagon officials, just before he told his supporters to "storm the steps of the capital." And especially after his praise of Putin before this war.

If Trump was President right now, I believe we'd already be engaged in nuclear war.

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #5:
> 'ALL THE'? I believe you have either been ignorant on real facts, or unhappily blundered while stating facts. Only to let you know, the Chinese government is currently aiding these minorities at acquiring a good life, millions have been spent in farming equipment, trains, roads, further allowing people to have a life without problems with surviving.
> Same lies about China in the western news all over the western world. Want more? China aids African countries with billions of money. What do news say about this? "-China is forcing Arab countries to take their political side."
>
> China allows people to live a live outside of poverty. They build medical centres and almost always make life easier and more comfortable for people. Whereas western countries debated about donating a single million dollar aid for about two years, and then decide 'due to inconvenient reasons' not to give them a penny. These bribed news just find one or two cases where something unfair has happened and put it there as if it was a huge thing.
> Just wanted to let you know that China rescues more lives in Africa and Asia than any western country has ever done around the globe.
>
> You know what western countries do in order to 'help' people? Yeah, invade Somalia, plunder Congo, send troops into Yemen, suppress popular governments and and block every effort to make life better for the citizens.

Man, you are talking pure NONSENS...

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #44:
> OK, now imagine China putting higher wages into law. Do you think these companies will simply pay more? They will run to places like India and eastpakistan and nothing will change
Yeah that's kind of exactly what I said. As long as someone is willing to be exploited, capitalists are going to make profit out of them. That's why Marx said "workers of the world, unite!". He didn't say "workers of the world, work for a lower wage than your neighbours!". That (which you seem to defend) is the classical right-wing neoliberal motto.
> But things are going to change. China is building highspeed trains and is going to liberate the starving populations.
Ah yes, the high speed trains to liberate starving populations! Thank you, you made my day.