Hasenpfeffer Incorporated!
@reffi said in #9:
> The ones that look similar to the Prussian Flag are the Flags that were used until 1921. They are not forbidden.
Surprise, surprise! The user spouting antisemitism in another thread is defending the use of a flag popular with Neo-Nazis.
More to the point, you are wrong - the Imperial War flag is explicitly banned in Bremen because it has been appropriated by Nazis and xenophobes, and was brandished by far-right conspiracist assholes who stormed the Reichstag last year. They were widely condemned as 'enemies of democracy' as was the widespread use of imperial symbols.
www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2020-10-13/germany-bremen-prohibits-flying-or-using-german-imperial-war-flags/
> The ones that look similar to the Prussian Flag are the Flags that were used until 1921. They are not forbidden.
Surprise, surprise! The user spouting antisemitism in another thread is defending the use of a flag popular with Neo-Nazis.
More to the point, you are wrong - the Imperial War flag is explicitly banned in Bremen because it has been appropriated by Nazis and xenophobes, and was brandished by far-right conspiracist assholes who stormed the Reichstag last year. They were widely condemned as 'enemies of democracy' as was the widespread use of imperial symbols.
www.loc.gov/item/global-legal-monitor/2020-10-13/germany-bremen-prohibits-flying-or-using-german-imperial-war-flags/
The Imperial War Flags are not the same thing at all, and in fact don't even look the same. I'm not sure why they are relevant here.
Fascinating about the flag ban. I always shake my head at how such supposedly "liberal" countries like to ban things - flags, verses of their national anthem etc. "WE WILL FORCE YOU TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER" :D
Many may not be aware that the banning of the opening verses of the German anthem, for instance, is due to complete ignorance. The opening lines are generally thought to refer to Germany as a superior nation, the best in the world - but in fact they refer to the (at the time, in the 1840s) liberal and democratic idea of unifying Germany under a single flag.
Anyway, that's by the by. It's quite odd for me as a Jewish guy at Rosh Hashanah to be defending the rights of Germans, but hey :D
Fascinating about the flag ban. I always shake my head at how such supposedly "liberal" countries like to ban things - flags, verses of their national anthem etc. "WE WILL FORCE YOU TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER" :D
Many may not be aware that the banning of the opening verses of the German anthem, for instance, is due to complete ignorance. The opening lines are generally thought to refer to Germany as a superior nation, the best in the world - but in fact they refer to the (at the time, in the 1840s) liberal and democratic idea of unifying Germany under a single flag.
Anyway, that's by the by. It's quite odd for me as a Jewish guy at Rosh Hashanah to be defending the rights of Germans, but hey :D
@schlemazel Most of Germany, and much of Europe, agree that giving intolerant extremists a platform ultimately leads to a regressive society of unspeakable horror. Karl Popper famously called it the paradox of tolerance - after he saw the rise of Nazism, the Night of the Long Knives, and promulgation of concentration camps.
Every nation has restrictions on speech. It's not, "WE WILL FORCE YOU TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER," as much as, "DON'T BE A FUCKING NAZI." That's a pretty low bar of decency. The only people I've met who are upset that they can't wave Nazi flags, give the Nazi salute, and chant Nazi slogans tend to be Nazis themselves.
Are you next going to stand up for peoples' rights to publish books on how to groom kids for sex, since you're such an advocate for unrestricted speech? How about championing the rights to threaten people's lives? Shit, blackmail is just another form of free speech too, while we're at it.
Or maybe - just maybe - unrestricted free speech isn't as ideal as you think it is.
Every nation has restrictions on speech. It's not, "WE WILL FORCE YOU TO BE NICE TO EACH OTHER," as much as, "DON'T BE A FUCKING NAZI." That's a pretty low bar of decency. The only people I've met who are upset that they can't wave Nazi flags, give the Nazi salute, and chant Nazi slogans tend to be Nazis themselves.
Are you next going to stand up for peoples' rights to publish books on how to groom kids for sex, since you're such an advocate for unrestricted speech? How about championing the rights to threaten people's lives? Shit, blackmail is just another form of free speech too, while we're at it.
Or maybe - just maybe - unrestricted free speech isn't as ideal as you think it is.
@chummer I find it quite ironical that, considering how many members of my family died at the time to which you refer, and the fact that I've written articles in international newspapers about antisemitism, I'm on the "wrong side" of a lecture about Nazism.
Intolerance isn't just a one-way thing. In my opinion, excluding those whose opinions we detest from public platforms is a dangerous game. Pushing controversial opinions underground simply takes them away from public view, where they fester and grow.
A point to case is the controversy around the appearance of the (at the time) leader of the far right wing BNP on BBC television's Question Time. While liberal luvvies protested about it with banners and marches, I was personally delighted because I realised that allowing him a platform would simply show off how odious he and his opinions are. It worked: he imploded in front of a live audience and his party's poll ratings collapsed. Now, the party is nothing once again.
Of course, as Alfred Adler (for whom Karl Popper, an acquaintance of my father's, did some voluntary work at one point) said: "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them".
I'm not really sure what the relevance of your argument is, though. The flag in question is not a Nazi flag or that of any political party; nor is it a war flag of any sort. It is simply the flag under which my grandfather fought in WW1. My father, may he rest in peace, was a Jewish refugee in 1939, and he would never have called himself German - but he did talk proudly of his Prussian ancestry.
Thank you, though, for making this thread more interesting!
Intolerance isn't just a one-way thing. In my opinion, excluding those whose opinions we detest from public platforms is a dangerous game. Pushing controversial opinions underground simply takes them away from public view, where they fester and grow.
A point to case is the controversy around the appearance of the (at the time) leader of the far right wing BNP on BBC television's Question Time. While liberal luvvies protested about it with banners and marches, I was personally delighted because I realised that allowing him a platform would simply show off how odious he and his opinions are. It worked: he imploded in front of a live audience and his party's poll ratings collapsed. Now, the party is nothing once again.
Of course, as Alfred Adler (for whom Karl Popper, an acquaintance of my father's, did some voluntary work at one point) said: "It is easier to fight for one's principles than to live up to them".
I'm not really sure what the relevance of your argument is, though. The flag in question is not a Nazi flag or that of any political party; nor is it a war flag of any sort. It is simply the flag under which my grandfather fought in WW1. My father, may he rest in peace, was a Jewish refugee in 1939, and he would never have called himself German - but he did talk proudly of his Prussian ancestry.
Thank you, though, for making this thread more interesting!
@schlemazel said in #15:
> Intolerance isn't just a one-way thing. In my opinion, excluding those whose opinions we detest from public platforms is a dangerous game. Pushing controversial opinions underground simply takes them away from public view, where they fester and grow.
I think Germany and nations who were subjugated by Nazis have a better understanding of the dangers of letting the Nazi ideology grow like a weed rather than taking measures to eradicate it at the root. Are you arguing that Nazism would have grown more if it was pushed underground during the Interwar period?
> I'm not really sure what the relevance of your argument is, though. The flag in question is not a Nazi flag or that of any political party; nor is it a war flag of any sort. It is simply the flag under which my grandfather fought in WW1. My father, may he rest in peace, was a Jewish refugee in 1939, and he would never have called himself German - but he did talk proudly of his Prussian ancestry.
Reffi was referencing the Imperial War Flag which does have Nazi ties and is outlawed in Bremen. I responded quite clearly to that comment, especially since Reffi posted antisemitism in another thread.
Since Prussia isn't a country, and most people who identify as Prussian today tend to be Reichsbuerger extremist assholes, why open that can of worms? It's not a country - it's a lifestyle, and a toxic one at that.
> I find it quite ironical that, considering how many members of my family died at the time to which you refer, and the fact that I've written articles in international newspapers about antisemitism, I'm on the "wrong side" of a lecture about Nazism.
You seem concerned with Nazis right to free speech, but not other groups that most people find objectionable like pedophiles. You claim that Nazism should be debated openly and not pushed underground, as if that didn't happen in the 1930s.
The bottom line is that Prussian symbolism today is associated with extremists and Nazis which is slightly more important than honoring somebody who is long dead and buried.
If you have articles that bolster your argument, I'd be happy to read them. What is your expertise that allowed you to publish articles in multiple international newspapers about such a focused topic like antisemitism? Which newspapers were they?
> Intolerance isn't just a one-way thing. In my opinion, excluding those whose opinions we detest from public platforms is a dangerous game. Pushing controversial opinions underground simply takes them away from public view, where they fester and grow.
I think Germany and nations who were subjugated by Nazis have a better understanding of the dangers of letting the Nazi ideology grow like a weed rather than taking measures to eradicate it at the root. Are you arguing that Nazism would have grown more if it was pushed underground during the Interwar period?
> I'm not really sure what the relevance of your argument is, though. The flag in question is not a Nazi flag or that of any political party; nor is it a war flag of any sort. It is simply the flag under which my grandfather fought in WW1. My father, may he rest in peace, was a Jewish refugee in 1939, and he would never have called himself German - but he did talk proudly of his Prussian ancestry.
Reffi was referencing the Imperial War Flag which does have Nazi ties and is outlawed in Bremen. I responded quite clearly to that comment, especially since Reffi posted antisemitism in another thread.
Since Prussia isn't a country, and most people who identify as Prussian today tend to be Reichsbuerger extremist assholes, why open that can of worms? It's not a country - it's a lifestyle, and a toxic one at that.
> I find it quite ironical that, considering how many members of my family died at the time to which you refer, and the fact that I've written articles in international newspapers about antisemitism, I'm on the "wrong side" of a lecture about Nazism.
You seem concerned with Nazis right to free speech, but not other groups that most people find objectionable like pedophiles. You claim that Nazism should be debated openly and not pushed underground, as if that didn't happen in the 1930s.
The bottom line is that Prussian symbolism today is associated with extremists and Nazis which is slightly more important than honoring somebody who is long dead and buried.
If you have articles that bolster your argument, I'd be happy to read them. What is your expertise that allowed you to publish articles in multiple international newspapers about such a focused topic like antisemitism? Which newspapers were they?
for a fact Nazis did not care about Prussia but still it's associated with germanistic chauvinism, militarism, reactionariness etc ...
Lichess is lightyears away from such dubious stuff.
@chummer You remind me of all the neo-liberals who maintain that Brexit voters are all right wing extremists, despite the fact that they won the popular vote in the 2016 referendum!
I'm unsure what you think you'll gain out of it, but you simply denigrate those of us who are proud of their ancestry in Prussia. It doesn't matter to me personally, because your opinions aren't important to me and nor are your arguments valid. To tar Prussian pride as some kind of right wing extremism simply reflects badly on YOU.
Üb' immer Treu und Redlichkeit / Bis an dein kühles Grab; / Und weiche keinen Fingerbreit / Von Gottes Wegen ab....
I'm unsure what you think you'll gain out of it, but you simply denigrate those of us who are proud of their ancestry in Prussia. It doesn't matter to me personally, because your opinions aren't important to me and nor are your arguments valid. To tar Prussian pride as some kind of right wing extremism simply reflects badly on YOU.
Üb' immer Treu und Redlichkeit / Bis an dein kühles Grab; / Und weiche keinen Fingerbreit / Von Gottes Wegen ab....
@schlemazel
>You remind me of all the neo-liberals who maintain that Brexit voters are all right wing extremists, despite the fact that they won the popular vote in the 2016 referendum!
Nobody has ever claimed that. For someone who claimed to have written for multiple international newspapers, I would think you would craft cogent arguments and avoid creating strawman arguments.
The only thing I find credible is that you genuinely believe Nazis should have a platform, and that you do want to identify with the only people who commonly fly the Prussian flag, like the Reichsbürger and similar groups, because of pride.
>You remind me of all the neo-liberals who maintain that Brexit voters are all right wing extremists, despite the fact that they won the popular vote in the 2016 referendum!
Nobody has ever claimed that. For someone who claimed to have written for multiple international newspapers, I would think you would craft cogent arguments and avoid creating strawman arguments.
The only thing I find credible is that you genuinely believe Nazis should have a platform, and that you do want to identify with the only people who commonly fly the Prussian flag, like the Reichsbürger and similar groups, because of pride.
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