That's a very dirty front door to the venue of the World Chess Championship, someone must be held accountable for that carelessness.
You should add the 23.g4 is the best move and clearly winning : http://www.talkchess.com/forum3/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=68976 lichess.org
After 23.g4
+4,82 23. ... fxg3 24.Qxg3 Bd6 25.Be5 Bxe5 26.Qxe5 Qf6 27.Qxf6
+4,86 23. ... Bc8 24.Rfe1 Bf6 25.Be5 h5 26.h3 hxg4 27.hxg4 Bxe5
+4,60 23. ... Bg6 24.Rad1 Rf7 25.d6 Bxd6 26.Nc4 Rd7 27.Nxd6 Rxd
+4,33 23. ... Bd7 24.d6 Bc6 25.dxe7 Qxe7 26.Nd5 Qe6 27.Rad1 Rbd
After 23.g4
+4,82 23. ... fxg3 24.Qxg3 Bd6 25.Be5 Bxe5 26.Qxe5 Qf6 27.Qxf6
+4,86 23. ... Bc8 24.Rfe1 Bf6 25.Be5 h5 26.h3 hxg4 27.hxg4 Bxe5
+4,60 23. ... Bg6 24.Rad1 Rf7 25.d6 Bxd6 26.Nc4 Rd7 27.Nxd6 Rxd
+4,33 23. ... Bd7 24.d6 Bc6 25.dxe7 Qxe7 26.Nd5 Qe6 27.Rad1 Rbd
Ian Rogers' articles have been excellent: a straightforward summary with some good humor sprinkled in!
@Vinvin Nice find, but I wouldn't say "clearly" winning for humans.
@Vinvin Nice find, but I wouldn't say "clearly" winning for humans.
At least 3 d4 leads to more than 3 Bb5.
Fischer used to crush the Sveshnikov with one tempo less: 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 e6 5 Nb5 d6 6 Bf4 e5 7 Be3 Nf6 8 Bg5 against Taimanov, Petrosian...
Fischer used to crush the Sveshnikov with one tempo less: 1 e4 c5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 e6 5 Nb5 d6 6 Bf4 e5 7 Be3 Nf6 8 Bg5 against Taimanov, Petrosian...
Wonderful and ultra-fascinating contest so-far. Compares well to K-K in Seville Spain in 1987. Much cut-and-thrust games, so far.
Especially game8 and almost all agreed that Magnus would indeed face Caruana's Open Sicilian by he himself then deploying the love-hate Sveshnikov defence. Despite Magnus never having once played the Sveshnikov post about 2010 (and aged about 20 then), after 3 quick-fire and very brutal losses to Morozovitsj, Leko and Shirov and then about 4 stabilizing draws. I was much more expecting the Scheveningen or the Paulsen Sicilian from Magnus ...as the Sveshnikov is so very horribly complex and entirely double-edged and can get very brutal.
Great opening the Sveshnikov though, haha. Caruana almost on the verge of winning yet again, after his G6 Petroff effort previously. Magnus however using every effort to get counter-play and searching for the solidity of the draw. The whole psychological aspect is going to be very interesting now - entering into the final 4 games home-straight. How to proceed?
You'd imagine that both players will have prepared some no-holds-barred openings prep, just in case ever needed. In case a game down with 2 to play, or in needing to win last-game. Fabi probably needs to be even more concentrated in this ultra-crucial phase of the match, as getting almost-wins are not the same as gaining actual wins and his strength is in now way to be seen in either Rapid nor Blitz modes. A temporary upper-hand, but this could evaporate if the match moves onto Rapid stuff.
Both sides with 2x white and 2x Black now. I'd expect Fabi to stick with 1.e4 from now on. With Magnus, you don't really know which opening he wants to explore. Fabi probably needs to win one out of the next 4 games. Magnus showing some incredible defensive resources until now though, to always keep hanging-on in (G1 was roles reversed, but since then not so much). A very nice match though.
Especially game8 and almost all agreed that Magnus would indeed face Caruana's Open Sicilian by he himself then deploying the love-hate Sveshnikov defence. Despite Magnus never having once played the Sveshnikov post about 2010 (and aged about 20 then), after 3 quick-fire and very brutal losses to Morozovitsj, Leko and Shirov and then about 4 stabilizing draws. I was much more expecting the Scheveningen or the Paulsen Sicilian from Magnus ...as the Sveshnikov is so very horribly complex and entirely double-edged and can get very brutal.
Great opening the Sveshnikov though, haha. Caruana almost on the verge of winning yet again, after his G6 Petroff effort previously. Magnus however using every effort to get counter-play and searching for the solidity of the draw. The whole psychological aspect is going to be very interesting now - entering into the final 4 games home-straight. How to proceed?
You'd imagine that both players will have prepared some no-holds-barred openings prep, just in case ever needed. In case a game down with 2 to play, or in needing to win last-game. Fabi probably needs to be even more concentrated in this ultra-crucial phase of the match, as getting almost-wins are not the same as gaining actual wins and his strength is in now way to be seen in either Rapid nor Blitz modes. A temporary upper-hand, but this could evaporate if the match moves onto Rapid stuff.
Both sides with 2x white and 2x Black now. I'd expect Fabi to stick with 1.e4 from now on. With Magnus, you don't really know which opening he wants to explore. Fabi probably needs to win one out of the next 4 games. Magnus showing some incredible defensive resources until now though, to always keep hanging-on in (G1 was roles reversed, but since then not so much). A very nice match though.
"That's a very dirty front door to the venue of the World Chess Championship, someone must be held accountable for that carelessness."
Quickly - let's find something to complain about and someone to blame!
REally? Some leaves on the ground a the front door to the venue?
Quickly - let's find something to complain about and someone to blame!
REally? Some leaves on the ground a the front door to the venue?
I wonder if this is so desirable where chess games, even at the highest level possible, start to become decided by the luck of avoiding (or not) the opponent's opening preparation. That's in no way a criticism of Caruana as of course preparation is a very real part of the game and he's done a phenomenal job of prepping for this event. But this feels somehow less interesting to watch a match where the outcome is heavily, if not primarily, weighted by the conclusion of two players coming to the board and just comparing their notes derived from computer analyses.
It'd be nice to see Fischer random take a more prominent role in elite chess.
In any case still looking forward to game 9!
It'd be nice to see Fischer random take a more prominent role in elite chess.
In any case still looking forward to game 9!
I disagree that fischer random would be appropriate for deciding anything in the WCC. It's simply a different game; you wouldn't want to decide a world championship of *chess* with a sudden death round of crazyhouse would you? fischer random is a variant of chess, it is not chess. This would be absurd to implement, and I cannot imagine that any chess federation would even consider it as an option.
It's bad enough that tie-breakers are played at a shorter time control. Let's not muddy the waters further with idiosyncratic variants as 'viable' options for tie-breakers. It takes as long as it takes. We're talking about the very highest levels of chess here, you have to expect that the players are very closely matched.
Sure, it's slow. Sure, it's not blitz. But let's not suggest radical changes to a game that has been played for over a century. This would introduce controversy that would be detrimental to chess. Leave well enough alone. Sheesh, think of the opportunities for cheating here too! Imagine if one team somehow managed to discover the starting position for each round. This would be disastrous.
I understand that people dislike the opening preparation convention. But this has been a part of high level chess since the beginning. It's just how it is. Each team analyzes the opponent's games and attempts to secure an advantage by superior preparation. That said, it's still up to the player to memorize and play the prep, it's not as if they have books in front of them. This is how the game is played at the highest levels. Let's not imagine that average players should dictate how the game is played simply because they are dissatisfied with one aspect of the rules. Let's enjoy the stratospheric play and not jigger with it on a whim.
MR
It's bad enough that tie-breakers are played at a shorter time control. Let's not muddy the waters further with idiosyncratic variants as 'viable' options for tie-breakers. It takes as long as it takes. We're talking about the very highest levels of chess here, you have to expect that the players are very closely matched.
Sure, it's slow. Sure, it's not blitz. But let's not suggest radical changes to a game that has been played for over a century. This would introduce controversy that would be detrimental to chess. Leave well enough alone. Sheesh, think of the opportunities for cheating here too! Imagine if one team somehow managed to discover the starting position for each round. This would be disastrous.
I understand that people dislike the opening preparation convention. But this has been a part of high level chess since the beginning. It's just how it is. Each team analyzes the opponent's games and attempts to secure an advantage by superior preparation. That said, it's still up to the player to memorize and play the prep, it's not as if they have books in front of them. This is how the game is played at the highest levels. Let's not imagine that average players should dictate how the game is played simply because they are dissatisfied with one aspect of the rules. Let's enjoy the stratospheric play and not jigger with it on a whim.
MR
You're putting words in my mouth there. Like I said, I'd like to see Fischer Random play a more prominent role in elite chess. That's not the same as immediately supplanting the world championship with it which would obviously be wholly inappropriate, at first.
In one of his books Kasparov discussed his views on opening preparation for which he was certainly extremely renowned. He himself also felt he was, in his words, regularly bringing a might sword to battle. However, as the computer age dawned he was surprised to find how incredibly often he was actually bringing a rusty dagger.
Even ideas deeply prepared at home could and very often did have extremely severe flaws waiting to be discovered. It was a part of the game, but it was just another part of the game. There were even adjournments at a time when the players would go home and analyze a game with their time, while it was in progress, and resume it the next day. And while the play quality was generally quite high there were also fairly frequently substantial mistakes made. Because again it was all dependent upon human skill, and chess is hard - for humans. As Magnus recently said, he sucks at chess - just somewhat less so than everybody else.
That is no longer the case. The players are able to play, from the perspective of a human, near perfectly and we now have a world championship match where the outcome of games is increasingly going to end up being decided by who ends up walking into the other player's memorization of Stockfish lines for which, from the perspective of a human, there are no real flaws or errors to seek out. It's just pray your opponent's memorization runs out before you end up dead lost.
As for Fischer random, I'd agree it's probably appropriate to call it a variant. Yet compared to other variants it plays by the exact same rules (sans a more liberal castling), using the exact same pieces, with no additional nuance at all. It basically just forces players to play positions on their own. And the position need not be decided ahead of time. Each player takes turns drawing pieces (written on paper) from a bag and that piece is placed on the board. The recent Saint Louis Fischer Random tournament was a great example of what high level Fischer Random looks like. And it's a beaut!
In one of his books Kasparov discussed his views on opening preparation for which he was certainly extremely renowned. He himself also felt he was, in his words, regularly bringing a might sword to battle. However, as the computer age dawned he was surprised to find how incredibly often he was actually bringing a rusty dagger.
Even ideas deeply prepared at home could and very often did have extremely severe flaws waiting to be discovered. It was a part of the game, but it was just another part of the game. There were even adjournments at a time when the players would go home and analyze a game with their time, while it was in progress, and resume it the next day. And while the play quality was generally quite high there were also fairly frequently substantial mistakes made. Because again it was all dependent upon human skill, and chess is hard - for humans. As Magnus recently said, he sucks at chess - just somewhat less so than everybody else.
That is no longer the case. The players are able to play, from the perspective of a human, near perfectly and we now have a world championship match where the outcome of games is increasingly going to end up being decided by who ends up walking into the other player's memorization of Stockfish lines for which, from the perspective of a human, there are no real flaws or errors to seek out. It's just pray your opponent's memorization runs out before you end up dead lost.
As for Fischer random, I'd agree it's probably appropriate to call it a variant. Yet compared to other variants it plays by the exact same rules (sans a more liberal castling), using the exact same pieces, with no additional nuance at all. It basically just forces players to play positions on their own. And the position need not be decided ahead of time. Each player takes turns drawing pieces (written on paper) from a bag and that piece is placed on the board. The recent Saint Louis Fischer Random tournament was a great example of what high level Fischer Random looks like. And it's a beaut!
@OhNoMyPants
Well, both sides of the Chess colors in the computer age have no problems at all in analyzing countless sub-lines in their chosen openings. Just a mouse click (or 10 or 20) away these days. Sanity checking all of the looser aspects of a slightly unusual opening idea is nowadays no problem at all. You can just walk up-and-down the tree of all possible continuations for any possible direct refutation.
Then the battle however quickly shifts into a very fascinating probe to explore those very singular positions (in early to mid middle games) that cannot ever be *correctly* analyzed by the almighty chess machines. Slight imbalances achieved, small structural advantages that might be sustained or exploited long-term, the benefits of the bishop-pair or the bad vs good bishop, the ability to at-times just play risk-free aka not actually winning objectively but the opponent can maybe never win and you just get a free-pass for about 30 moves (maybe a clock advantage too) to just try to see if your opponent does find a good response.
Game 9 a very-good example here: Fabi not so very 100% accurate in this 2nd English game, Magnus with a nice Bb2 idea, then the ultra devilish complexity of the ...e4 pawn push (maybe just too unclear, to ever play it otb) forcing Fabi to instead accept a pretty horrible looking exchange on f3, inviting in-game difficulties. Magnus however is no computer and his own h5 pawn-push does shatter Black's pawn balance, but Fabi has a very nice just-take-the-pawn-(if in doubt, always take) and then play f5.
It looks just fine to me (cough, cough) atm, for Black. Who knows? Probably yet another draw. Premature maybe, but Black is no longer just passive(and Bb6 is no bystander anymore) and the white king is now also a bit loose. Should be more than enough for the 9th draw. If White wants more, he might even get less.
Always a huge danger in going one-move too far to still play for the win. I'd expect another draw here. As to Fischer chess, maybe viable in a side-show way in some tournies. Classical chess still in no need of re-invention though. Humans are no computers, but humans can for-sure use computers to stop any Kasparov-style smash-and-grab of just utter opening prep analysis, by his seconds.
Magnus too an utter Chess genius from 2008~2016, in playing almost unknown and very little researched positions almost by full intuition and just *feeling* the game-win possibilities. Other Chess players though, like Fabi and also Nakamura, Karjakin, the Azerb guy and the Chinese guy and others, W. So too, are (or have been for the last 3 years maybe) all been playing catch-up here like crazy though. I don't think that Magnus has any automatic or intrinsic secret advantage anymore. Still first among equals is Magnus for sure, as he is also just so devastating in both Rapid and Blitz Chess too, and these formats can decide WCC matches too eventually.
Which is good for Chess aka Magnus not anymore so dominant an thus almost equals battling amongst themselves, maybe missing mates in 64 haha, but just playing like humans. Wonderful encounter this WCC2018, so far.
Well, both sides of the Chess colors in the computer age have no problems at all in analyzing countless sub-lines in their chosen openings. Just a mouse click (or 10 or 20) away these days. Sanity checking all of the looser aspects of a slightly unusual opening idea is nowadays no problem at all. You can just walk up-and-down the tree of all possible continuations for any possible direct refutation.
Then the battle however quickly shifts into a very fascinating probe to explore those very singular positions (in early to mid middle games) that cannot ever be *correctly* analyzed by the almighty chess machines. Slight imbalances achieved, small structural advantages that might be sustained or exploited long-term, the benefits of the bishop-pair or the bad vs good bishop, the ability to at-times just play risk-free aka not actually winning objectively but the opponent can maybe never win and you just get a free-pass for about 30 moves (maybe a clock advantage too) to just try to see if your opponent does find a good response.
Game 9 a very-good example here: Fabi not so very 100% accurate in this 2nd English game, Magnus with a nice Bb2 idea, then the ultra devilish complexity of the ...e4 pawn push (maybe just too unclear, to ever play it otb) forcing Fabi to instead accept a pretty horrible looking exchange on f3, inviting in-game difficulties. Magnus however is no computer and his own h5 pawn-push does shatter Black's pawn balance, but Fabi has a very nice just-take-the-pawn-(if in doubt, always take) and then play f5.
It looks just fine to me (cough, cough) atm, for Black. Who knows? Probably yet another draw. Premature maybe, but Black is no longer just passive(and Bb6 is no bystander anymore) and the white king is now also a bit loose. Should be more than enough for the 9th draw. If White wants more, he might even get less.
Always a huge danger in going one-move too far to still play for the win. I'd expect another draw here. As to Fischer chess, maybe viable in a side-show way in some tournies. Classical chess still in no need of re-invention though. Humans are no computers, but humans can for-sure use computers to stop any Kasparov-style smash-and-grab of just utter opening prep analysis, by his seconds.
Magnus too an utter Chess genius from 2008~2016, in playing almost unknown and very little researched positions almost by full intuition and just *feeling* the game-win possibilities. Other Chess players though, like Fabi and also Nakamura, Karjakin, the Azerb guy and the Chinese guy and others, W. So too, are (or have been for the last 3 years maybe) all been playing catch-up here like crazy though. I don't think that Magnus has any automatic or intrinsic secret advantage anymore. Still first among equals is Magnus for sure, as he is also just so devastating in both Rapid and Blitz Chess too, and these formats can decide WCC matches too eventually.
Which is good for Chess aka Magnus not anymore so dominant an thus almost equals battling amongst themselves, maybe missing mates in 64 haha, but just playing like humans. Wonderful encounter this WCC2018, so far.
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