@clousems said in #48:
> If we're relying on the whole "we totally owned this land at one point in time" arguments, wouldnt that mean Mongolia has equal claim?
> Also, how come nobody is arguing that Russia is the rightful territory of Ukraine? Kyiv outdates Moscow by like 700 years. Russia was settled by Kyivans, not the other way around.
with such, reasoning, the USA would belong to France, and France to England and England to Norway and we could go back to the first Homo sapiens who had the idea of ownership !
seriously speaking, it's not that, it's more complex.
Already Kievan Rus' was at its peak a sort of great ""confederation"" which brought together several autonomous regions (Novgorod, Smolensk, Galicia, Rostov, Valdimir etc.).
There was first a Khaganate of Rus': which probably began following commercial relations between the Normans (Varangians) and Slavic, Baltic and Finno-Udmur peoples. There was the beginning of a new political system where the Varangians, powerful merchants and warriors, interfered in the politics of indigenous clans, to the point of becoming trusted or feared people whose expertise allowed/forced Slavic chiefs to give them lands and powers.
This strategic positioning of the Varangians on the main rivers (Volga, Dnieper) allowed them to build trade routes, notably the Holmgard counters, which became (after merger with Slavonic villages) Novgorod.
the Slavs who inhabited this territory had finally rebelled several times against the tributes of the Varangians, then, after having been autonomous for a time, called on the Varangians again to govern.
Then the Rus' was "born" in Novgorod, with Rurik and his brothers. After his death, the Varangians under the command of the regent Oleg the Wise took Kyiv which was in the hands of rival Varangians and then made it one of their capitals. Oleg the wise united the Varangian clans and this choice of new capital had two reasons :
1) to distinguish himself from Rurik who had made Novgorod his capital, as was regularly the custom at the time, each new city of importance captured could either be razed, or have the potential to become a capital. Oleg the wise conquered the city then put a descendant of Rurik (Igor of kyiv) at its head to make this choice credible.
2) by moving the capital to the middle of the territory of the Slavs, this could be a pretext to enlarge the state and assert a strong policy and promote trade with border states, notably Byzantium, which would allow Rus' to no longer be considered as a disorganized conglomerate of Varangian tribes but as an important principality articulated around a dynasty.
once Oleg had taken Kyiv, he developed it even further to "obliterate" Novgorod in an attempt to keep a single line of descendants from Rurik so that the Slavs would view Igor as their sole potential ruler.
as for Muscovy, it was firstly a secondary principality in the orbit of Ryazan and Vladimir which flourished under the reign of Daniel the "Peaceful" a descendant of Rurik and son of Alexander Nevsky who made it a very important principality and which became progressively the most influential political and cultural center.
so to summarize : Varangians conquered lands of Slavic/Baltic/Finno-Udmur clans, then from Novgorod they settled in Kyiv, then after marriages and cultural mixing, a descendant of Varangian-Slavic-Byzantine will be first prince of Moscow.
