What country is the most brainwashed

@NaturalBornTraveller said in #38:
> I am fairly sure that the Ukrainian people's democratic elected government, can decide if a foreign nation's military invasion is illegal.
no they can't, interstate conflict is subject to international laws and standards, and russia has violated none. no international organization or court (such as the UN) has ruled that the russian military operation is in violation of international law.
> Why are russian soldiers not within their own borders? What jurisdiction does russian soldiers think they have in Ukraine?
because they are at war.
> Ukraine is an independent country, so what legitimate reason brings russian military to invade their neighbour?
the end of ukrainian neutrality and it being a subject of nato (a military alliance made solely to counter russia) and hosting their nukes and military. posing an UNACCEPTABLE security threat to moscow.

> Russia want the Crimean peninsula.
what? crimea is 90% russian and has been a defacto part of russia for 8 years. the people of crimea held a referendum about joining russia, after the american government toppled the democratically elected yanukovich in a violent coup known as midan, and more than 90% of crimeans voted in favor.

> I can understand why they want it, but reason without justification is morally wrong.
they already have it, and i think the russian crimeans, wanting to be free of an anti russian ukrainian government and be reunited with russia once again is good enough of a justification.
> How many millions citizens have been forced out of their homes? How many thousands Slavic civilians have died since Russia invaded Ukraine?
yeah it is all tragic, so maybe the ukraine and nato should try to start serious peace talks, and address russia's grievances.
this military operation has been 8 years in the making, and at any point in that time it could have been prevented if NATO was not so aggressive and ukraine not so arrogant.

@TheMuffinMan2000 said in #61:
> no they can't, interstate conflict is subject to international laws and standards, and russia has violated none. no international organization or court (such as the UN) has ruled that the russian military operation is in violation of international law.
You mentioned interstate conflict, yet what has a foreign country, such as Russia to do with independent Ukrainian interstate politics?

> because they are at war.
Correct, Russia invaded a sovereign country, so they could increase their own national borders. I agree Russia declared war on Ukraine.

> the end of ukrainian neutrality and it being a subject of nato (a military alliance made solely to counter russia) and hosting their nukes and military. posing an UNACCEPTABLE security threat to moscow.
Neither before the 2014 russian annexation of Crimea, nor the 2022 invasion of mainland Ukraine, was there any talks about an Ukrainian NATO membership. Russia is a corrupt oligarchy, and sanctions hurt the oligarchs in Russia.

> what? crimea is 90% russian and has been a defacto part of russia for 8 years.
According to Wikipedia only 65% are ethnic russians and it have only be a part of Russia in 8 years, after they illegal annexed it.
Just because someone have the same ethnicity as a neighbouring country, it doesn't make them their subjects. Russia acknowledge the Ukrainian national borders when they became independent from the Soviet Union.

> the people of crimea held a referendum about joining russia, after the american government toppled the democratically elected yanukovich in a violent coup known as midan, and more than 90% of crimeans voted in favor.
The Americans did nothing, the Ukrainians themselves protested the election, because they wanted closer economic ties with the EU.
This conflict had nothing to do with NATO or the USA.
But happy to know that you support an independent Taiwan (aka. Republic of China), since the Taiwanese also voted to remain independent from China.

> they already have it, and i think the russian crimeans, wanting to be free of an anti russian ukrainian government and be reunited with russia once again is good enough of a justification.
Crimean peninsula isn't landlocked to Russia, that's why Russia invaded again. They need the landlocked border.

> yeah it is all tragic, so maybe the ukraine and nato should try to start serious peace talks, and address russia's grievances.
What russian grievances? It isn't the russian civilians who are forced from their homes, jobs and property.

> this military operation has been 8 years in the making, and at any point in that time it could have been prevented if NATO was not so aggressive and ukraine not so arrogant.
A military operation on foreign soil is called an invasion. Ukraine wasn't arrogant, after the betrayal of their cultural brethren, they fortified themselves.
Stop mentioning NATO (this argument is irrelevant here) Russia was worried about of Ukraine becoming more EU friendly, and how it could theoretically and potentially affect future russian trade in the Black sea, and their access to the Mediterranean ocean.

@NaturalBornTraveller said in #62:
> You mentioned interstate conflict, yet what has a foreign country, such as Russia to do with independent Ukrainian interstate politics?

interstate conflict means conflict between states (countries). so saying that ukraine thinks that russia's action is illegal is besides the point. they have no legal authority to decide that, since they are not sovereign over the whole world.

> Neither before the 2014 russian annexation of Crimea, nor the 2022 invasion of mainland Ukraine, was there any talks about an Ukrainian NATO membership.
yes there absolutely were. if you bother to look into the causes of the war, even among geopolitical experts who support ukraine, there is agreement that the final straw that made russia start the war was Zelensky saying just a few days before that he wanted to host NATO nukes on the border with russia.

> According to Wikipedia only 65% are ethnic russians and it have only be a part of Russia in 8 years, after they illegal annexed it.
the 90% figure is for crimeans who speak russian i believe.
> Just because someone have the same ethnicity as a neighbouring country, it doesn't make them their subjects.
it is not just the ethnicity, over 90% of crimeans voted in favor of joining russia. and they are now russian citizens.
> Russia acknowledge the Ukrainian national borders when they became independent from the Soviet Union.
and the america promised that nato would not expand eastwards. nato started it's crawl towards russia's borders in 1997, 17 years before the annexation of crimea, after an illegal violent coup backed by america. russia's annexation of crimea was a tame response to all of this.
> The Americans did nothing, the Ukrainians themselves protested the election, because they wanted closer economic ties with the EU.
there is literally an audio recording of Victoria Nuland, the assistant secretary of east european affairs in the american state department, talking to someone about their role in the coup, i will link it to you if you want.
and before the violent coup, a poll was done on which side ukrainians preferred to deal with, russia or the EU and some 55% said that they preferred russia.
> This conflict had nothing to do with NATO or the USA.
NATO and america's actions are the primary reason for this conflict starting, and lasting this long.

> What russian grievances? It isn't the russian civilians who are forced from their homes, jobs and property.
1-NATO expansion towards russia. 2- Ukraine dropping it's status as a neutral buffer state because of an american backed coup. 3- the slaughter of russians by ukrainians in the donbas, and discrimination towards russians elsewhere in ukraine.

just to name a few. the fact that you don't even consider that russia might have had good reasons for the invasion, shows how much you know and care about any of this.

> A military operation on foreign soil is called an invasion. Ukraine wasn't arrogant, after the betrayal of their cultural brethren, they fortified themselves.

huh?
> Stop mentioning NATO (this argument is irrelevant here) Russia was worried about of Ukraine becoming more EU friendly, and how it could theoretically and potentially affect future russian trade in the Black sea, and their access to the Mediterranean ocean.
let me get this straight, you think that NATO (again an alliance that exists solely to counter russia) is irrelevant to the reasons for the conflict starting in ukraine? russia's security concerns are the primary reason for the war. and nato is the chief threat to russian security.

@TheMuffinMan2000 hopefully we can agree to disagree.
Because apparently we get our information from different sources.
And honestly I don't trust your sources, or at least not your interpretation of those, and I suspect you wouldn't trust mine either.
So if I were to providing any links to refute your claim, I suspect it would be futile.
Good day sir, and hopefully a peaceful agreement will come soon.
Neither you nor I have any say in this. We are just pawns in a word in turmoil.