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How to improve life (by yours truly Nexus1200)

@krasnaya

It is written that those who curse Israel will be cursed, and those who bless Israel will be blessed. How does that fit your description of a curse?

How are people who bless Israel blessed or cursed? It seems to me that the target of the blessing or curse is ultimately the one doing the blessing and cursing.
@s23bog said (#31):
> It is written that those who curse Israel will be cursed,
> and those who bless Israel will be blessed.

And? I have read "fuck the police" some time ago sprayed on a wall. Not everything written somewhere is correct, makes sense or is to be taken as a suggestion. I for my part would have a hard time doing the (whole) police for sure and, for the record, i'll pass on the occasion.

> How does that fit your description of a curse?
You do have read that i said the definition is from Merriam-Webster, didn't you? As much as i have heard about it the dictionary has some reputability in regard of the english language. So, if it doesn't fit "my" (which in fact is Merriam-Websters) definition that may perhaps be because your source (which you still haven't revealed, maybe for a reason) is not quite as reputable as mine.

krasnaya
I am sure that FTP was spray painted on that wall because someone actually believed that is the correct way to behave. Likewise, what is written on the pages of the Holy Bible are written because people actually believe what was written.

Things that are written may not tell us what is true, but it does tell us a lot about the contents of the hearts of those who write. Your words say a whole lot about you.
I didn't bother to read the dictionary definition of curse. You wanted to talk about curses, so do you have any more cursing to do? It would be unexpected if you did not.
@s23bog said (#34):
> I didn't bother to read the dictionary definition of curse.

Well, as i have quoted it (and stated that i had), what have you read at all when you "answered" me? "I didn't bother to read what you have written but will answer to it" is a rather strange proposition, no?

> You wanted to talk about curses
As it is: no. I was answering to @TKtheGrandMaster who has brought it up in #28 (which i have mentioned as a quote when i answered it in #29). So, to sum it up: you haven't read what i wrote at all (otherwise you would have known) but you want to discuss what i write. I suggest actually reading what you want to debate might contribute to the quality of your arguments.

@s23bog said (#33):
> Likewise, what is written on the pages of the Holy Bible are written because people actually believe what was written.

So i take it when you say "it is written" that means "it is written in the bible", yes? Just for the sake of understanding each other: could you start to write in English instead of in code? Anyway, it doesn't really matter what is written there. Written in the bible is also that bats are birds and whales are fish. Does that make it true? Or does it make biologists delusional, because they are all firmly convinced of the opposite?

I will give you that, it says a lot about the people who wrote it: they were awfully lacking in education and ignorant about a lot of things. Chances are they were ignorant about a lot of other things too, it just isn't that obvious all. This is especially true for ethics and principles of morals. Let us see (the following quotes are taken from the "New International Version"):

Deuteronomy 20,10ff:
> When you march up to attack a city, make its people an offer of peace.

ah, obviously a religion of peace

> If they accept and open their gates, all the people in it shall be subject
> to forced labor and shall work for you.

Ok, i understand now what they mean by "peace".

> If they refuse to make peace and they engage you in battle, lay siege to
> that city. When the Lord your God delivers it into your hand, put to the
> sword all the men in it.

Well, everybody even slightly critical about the concept of genocide might argue with that one.

> As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the
> city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves.

Now, that is nice: genocide, but with a little organised rape thrown in for good measure. Sounds like a little problematic way of living together, no?

So, here is the curse of the day: the last time somebody made such a stance about others the base rule of his politics we put them before the Nuremberg Trial and hanged some of them - not nearly enough of them, for my liking, but it was a start. I hope everybody else believing similar racist nonsense like the one quoted above should be judged and sentenced the same way the Nazis were.

krasnaya
The NIV is not a good source. Use the KJV, which is from 1611. The NIV is from 1971. The KJV was a direct English translation from the Latin Vulgate, making it a better source.
@TKtheGrandMaster said (#36):
> The NIV is not a good source. Use the KJV, which is from 1611.

Fair enough, here are the respective quotes from the KJV (5. Mose 20, 10-14):

> When thou comest nigh unto a city to fight against it, then proclaim
> peace unto it.

> And it shall be, if it make thee answer of peace, and open unto thee,
> then it shall be, that all the people that is found therein shall be
> tributaries unto thee, and they shall serve thee.

> And if it will make no peace with thee, but will make war against
> thee, then thou shalt besiege it: And when the Lord thy God hath
> delivered it into thine hands, thou shalt smite every male thereof
> with the edge of the sword:

> But the women, and the little ones, and the cattle, and all that is in
> the city, even all the spoil thereof, shalt thou take unto thyself;

I fail to see the significant difference. Murder is murder, slavery is slavery and rape is rape - regardless of it being suggested in modern or older language.

@TKtheGrandMaster said (#36):
> The KJV was a direct English translation from the Latin Vulgate

So? The "Vulgata" (the latin name means "the common") was compiled in the end of the 4th century (sometimes after 382, as far as we know) by a monk named Hieronymus on order of pope Damasus. It is based on the latin translations of the gospels (so, it is not nearly any more "original" then other sources), other parts of the new testament were only very selectively included. After a few books of the old testament (after Damasus' death) he started to work on the complete old testament (since 393) and claimed his work to be based "on the hebrew", but in fact used the "Hexapla"-issue done by Origenes (who is considered a heretic, btw.). Because a lot of other latin translations were afloat at the same time only in the 6th-9th century the "vulgata" really became the "common" version, mostly on the order of Charlemagne (and the work of his scholars Alcuin of York and Theodulf of Orléans).

So, i fail to see how the KJV, which claims to be based on it, should be "more original" than a modern version based on a lot more research being conducted since then. Not even to mention the about 400 letters Hieronymus wrote to Damasus, where he laments that there are so many completely contradictory gospel versions afloat that it is absolutely impossible for him to find out which one would be the most accurate. I suggest you read up on your own sources a bit before using them. It is a rewarding activity.

krasnaya
No English translation is exactly the same as the original writings. Language doesn't translate like that. Not all words have equivalence across the spectrum of languages. I really doesn't help matters to fight about which translation is "good" and which is "bad". If someone offers a quote in a translation that you do not like, probably better to just suck it up and work with what is before you.
I am not found of the King James Version because people just simply don't speak like that anymore. It is NOT closer to the original than later translations. It is the first best effort at getting an English translation of already ancient texts.
Why be so caught up in which is translation is good and which is bad? The morally repugnant abominations are transparent in every version. Sure, languages don't translate exactly between one another, but the same message can be
adequately conveyed in any language with a bit of effort.

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