@dstne said in #43:
> Well, yeah I do.
>
> First off, I want you to understand what I’m using to come to this conclusion. Satan, although also used in pop culture, first came from the Bible. The Bible very explicitly states that man is evil, doesn’t love God, doesn’t seek after God, and that no one does good things (Romans 3:10-19, 23; Jeremiah 17:8b). Additionally, Jesus calls sinner sons of Satan (John 8:44).
>
> Is it really surprising to you that man is evil? I mean, do you know anyone who you have never seen do a bad thing before? It isn’t hard to see that even toddlers do bad things, and they are barely old enough to understand right and wrong. Why is it surprising that everyone is innately evil? It’s not fun to think of yourself as an evil person, but can you at least see that it might be true?
I don't agree. satan is there to show evil and for humans to realize that we must move towards good and redemption. monotheistic religions often agree on the point of redemption: humans are imperfect because they have committed an original sin and must always seek redemption to their errors and the errors of their ancestors through faith and being pious.
people are not naturally evil, a baby can't do evil, and if you consider evil that a baby cries when you sleep, or breaks a toy, then you are the one who is attracted to evil and see the world in evil. there is a difference between a child who kills an insect out of curiosity and has only a vague idea of what death is and that the insect is a living being and a hunter who kills a bird while being conscious that he is not hungry and that he kills this bird for his hunting table.
humans can become attracted to evil as they grow up, and despite this they will always have the possibility of redemption.
I take the example of Faust: Mephisto is presented as a character who is just there to show evil so that certain souls understand their sins and redeem themselves through faith or that others will go to hell as punishment for their actions and their refusals of redemption.
Mephisto finds Faust already capable of evil, no longer having faith in life and incapable of love.
in a way, Faust, through his pact, can still obtain redemption which would cancel the pact if he had made a clean sweep of his past and took advantage of his new life to do good. however, precisely since he signed this pact, he shows that he is corrupt because he only wants to prolong his existence, and agree to give his soul to became enslaved.
by meeting Gretchen, Faust discovers love and could have a chance of redemption by becoming virtuous, but he prefers to listen to Mephisto and go have a monstrous orgy and during this time, corrupt an innocent young woman who despairs and dies after killing her own child. However, Gretchen has redemption and not Faust (except in the Goethe's 2nd version, when Gretchen help Faust to be redempted)
Gretchen, fell in love with Faust but she was corrupted by him and accepted her fate for a while, but she sought faith and tried to ask for forgiveness for her actions and sank into madness (so more like a state where the person is no longer responsible for his actions and whether these actions are good or bad). worse, she didn't know that Mephisto was Mephisto, even if she found him suspicious.
Faust was conscious, and destroyed every chance of redemption.
