What do you think of this?

@WassimBerbar said in #10:
>

It's not overgeneralised because there is a large overlap.

If killing Palestinians = genocide, then does killing Israelis also = genocide?

Or does the way/quantity impact your answer?

If quantity, the Germans lost way more civilians than the Allies in WW2, and no one says they did the right thing. But if it is the way things happen, what do you suggest is the correct way?

@greenteakitten said in #11:
> If killing Palestinians = genocide, then does killing Israelis also = genocide?
Killing Palestinians civilians is genocide, and killing Israeli civilians is also genocide. Killing any civilians is genocide. Any.

> Or does the way/quantity impact your answer?
It's still people dying, so the quantity doesn't impact my answer. 1, 10, 20000 innocents murdered, it stays criminal (if you kill someone it's as if you killed all of humanity). But the way, if it's as savage as writing on rockets before sending them, it's even more criminal because it's acknowledged and premedited.

> If quantity, the Germans lost way more civilians than the Allies in WW2, and no one says they did the right thing. But if it is the way things happen, what do you suggest is the correct way?
Then whoever killed German civilians are also wrong, because they killed civilians.

If I was in WW2 as the Allies, I would first operate on Germany with stealth operation to take down the Nazi regime, while getting the least amount of innocents hit. A war stays war, soldiers from both sides die, but no civilian from anywhere dies.

@WassimBerbar said in #12:
> Killing Palestinians civilians is genocide, and killing Israeli civilians is also genocide. Killing any civilians is genocide. Any.
>
So therefore, according to your definition of genocide - the final statement should read

"And the genocides in Israel and in Gaza"

?

>
> It's still people dying, so the quantity doesn't impact my answer. 1, 10, 20000 innocents murdered, it stays criminal (if you kill someone it's as if you killed all of humanity). But the way, if it's as savage as writing on rockets before sending them, it's even more criminal because it's acknowledged and premedited.

>
But the question is, what if killing the civilian saves a guy from you side? One life for one life - from a purely analytical perspective, with no emotion attached - would this be fair to you? Or would it still be genocide?
>
> Then whoever killed German civilians are also wrong, because they killed civilians.
>
They didn't kill them intentionally. It just so happened that Germany was terrible at preparing, and the citizens got caught in the crossfire.

> If I was in WW2 as the Allies, I would first operate on Germany with stealth operation to take down the Nazi regime, while getting the least amount of innocents hit. A war stays war, soldiers from both sides die, but no civilian from anywhere dies.

Which sounds amazing, except it's impossible. People tried, and people failed.

@greenteakitten said in #14:
> So therefore, according to your definition of genocide - the final statement should read
>
> "And the genocides in Israel and in Gaza"?
Yes. Both count.

> But the question is, what if killing the civilian saves a guy from you side? One life for one life - from a purely analytical perspective, with no emotion attached - would this be fair to you? Or would it still be genocide?
Killing a civilian that did nothing saves a guy [soldier or civilian?] from my side? I would still keep the civilian alive. If it's in an emergency case and I has to do a quick instinctive decision to save a life but by killing a civilian, I would still not do it and try to save the guy with another mean, pushing him out of harm's way or something.

@WassimBerbar said in #15:
> Yes. Both count.
>
If you do believe so, then why do you not believe Hamas is a terror group?
>
> Killing a civilian that did nothing saves a guy [soldier or civilian?] from my side? I would still keep the civilian alive. If it's in an emergency case and I has to do a quick instinctive decision to save a life but by killing a civilian, I would still not do it and try to save the guy with another mean, pushing him out of harm's way or something.

Which sounds great on paper, but in war, it's not so simple. We like to sit back and judge people, but when we are on the battlefield, it's a completely different story.

@greenteakitten said in #16:
> If you do believe so, then why do you not believe Hamas is a terror group?
Becaus they fight against an obvious oppressor while the oppressor commits a genocide of his own.

@WassimBerbar said in #17:
> Becaus they fight against an obvious oppressor while the oppressor commits a genocide of his own.

So Hamas is not committing genocide, even when they are killing civilians, or people that have not done anything (not even Jewish)?

I think it's one thing to kill civilians because they're on the opposite side of the war. (Definitely not saying this is right.) But to hold hostage and kill civilians from other countries just because they can... that's kind of odd now isn't it?

"According to Hamas leader Mousa Abu Marzouk, the group considers captives who are citizens of both Israel and another country to be Israeli and will not release them" (aljazeera.com, which I know you believe is a trustworthy source - therefore I don't see any reason not to believe this)

In other words, they're perfectly fine taking Jews from random countries because those Jews look like the Jews in Israel.

If you want to make a distinction between Jews that kill Palestinians and "other Jews" - then you must also be compelled to make a distinction between random people in other countries that associate with Israel and the people in Israel themselves.

Not that I think such a distinction is helpful or necessary - it creates more complications than it should, for the mental gymnastics of justifying things that don't need to be justified.

(And some more info from the same source [which leans Palestinian, so if there is bias, it's the other way])

"An unspecified number of Israeli captives are being held by civilian residents in the Gaza Strip, Hamas said.

'After the Israeli army’s defence lines were broken and the army’s Gaza Division fell [on October 7], hundreds of citizens and dozens of fighters from various Palestinian factions entered the territories occupied in 1948 and captured dozens, most of them civilians,' Abu Marzouk said."

"Many hostages require medical treatment due to their medical conditions (such as Parkinson's, cardiovascular diseases, heart failure, diabetes mellitus and cancer), according to a report sent to the ICRC on 15 October by Dr. Hagai Levine of The Hostages and Missing Families Forum.[94] However, as of 5 December Hamas still refuses the ICRC access to the hostages.[95][96][97][98][99]

On 13 October, Hamas released a video purporting to demonstrate its compassion towards abducted children. The video shows armed Hamas militants patting children on the back, rocking children in a stroller, and giving a child water.[100] On 16 October, Hamas released a video of a 21-year-old French Israeli woman pleading to be returned to her family, while someone bandages her injured arm and a scar is visible.[101] A released hostage, who was a nurse, was moved throughout her captivity to treat other hostages and could ask for specific medicines. Although she has alleged the medicines were often in insufficient amounts.[102]

Israel’s Health Ministry found that the released hostages lost an average of 17–33 pounds (≈8–15 kilograms) in seven weeks, and they said their diet in captivity was minimal.[103] Professor Gilat Livni, who worked with some of the returned children at Schneider's children's hospital, stated that they were in "generally good condition" but raised caution about the trauma that was faced. A physician advising the families of held hostages also echoed this statement, warning of the trauma faced and the long process of restoring a sense of trust and control after being released.[104]

Dr. Renana Eitan, the head of psychiatry at the Ichilov Tel Aviv medical centre, said that among the freed hostages she examined were children drugged by their captors, including with ketamine, and were suffering from withdrawal.[105] Israel's Health Ministry’s confirmed that before they were released, liberated hostages were given psychoactive pills by their captors. Blood tests showed the drug was Clonazepam, commonly used to treat epilepsy, anxiety, OCD and other cases on a short term basis. Reportedly aimed to make the hostages appear calm and happy after enduring prolonged physical abuse, deprivation, and psychological terror in captivity.[106][107]

Prof. Dror Mendel, Director of the Dana-Dwek Children's Hospital, described orthopedic injuries, scarring and burns, and "very low hygiene standards... lice, rashes, skin irritation [and] inflammation". Prof. Ronit Lubetzky, director of the Pediatrics department, stated that some of the children have lost as much as 10 kg of body weight.[108] Prof. Itay Pesach, Director of the Edmond and Lily Safra Children's Hospital, said that patients describe "the entire range of abuse you could dream of... not different from the testimonies of people who came back from the ghetto or concentration camp".[108] Prof. Hagai Levine, who heads the medical and resilience team of the Hostages and Missing Families Forum, spoke on the lacking medical care given to the hostages, physical and psychological abuse, and starvation: "at first there was an implicit assumption that the conditions of captivity by Hamas are reasonable. This assumption no longer exists... The situations is terrible... There's no time. The clock of some [of the hostages] is already ticking."[109] A doctor[who?] who treated some of the 110 hostages released from captivity told the Associated Press that at least ten male and female hostages of them were sexually assaulted or abused. He declined to give his name or speak on any further details, claiming to protect the hostages identities.[110]

A former IDF mental health officer said returning hostages who have experienced continual psychological trauma will be very cautious about saying anything that endangers other captives. She also stated returning hostages can have "black holes in their memory" and can also express sympathy for their captors due to "Stockholm syndrome".[111][better source needed] Many hostages told relatives that they were totally isolated from the outside world and had no information about their family members, who in some cases were also kidnapped or killed in the attack.[112] Yaniv Yaacov the uncle of hostages said in an event in North Macedonia with the Israeli foreign minister that his two nephews were branded using the exhaust pipe of a motorcycle by Hamas. He alleged it was done so that if they escaped they could be detected through the burn and also said his nephews were drugged.[113]"

-Wikipedia, Israel-Hamas War

Make what you will of it.

@greenteakitten You posted a lot about Hamas while it's not the topic for it. I will answer this afternoon.