"There are only two things that are infinite; the universe, and human stupidity.
And I am not so sure about the former."
Ein-- you know who.
And I am not so sure about the former."
Ein-- you know who.
In fact on this topic;
>Einstein despised nationalism; he believed it was largely to blame for the global war that had just claimed some 40 million lives. He initially rejected the idea of a Jewish state on those grounds. In a speech to labor leaders some years later, he noted his resistance to the idea “of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest” and balked at the “narrow nationalism” that would accompany it.
>He also acknowledged the Arab peoples living in Palestine as “kinfolk,” and feared that any attempt to create a Jewish state on Arab land would lead to decades of hostility. In a letter to a colleague, the physicist Paul Ehrenfest, he cautioned that runaway Jewish nationalism “threatens to degenerate into hostility and bigotry.” Einstein hoped that internationalism, rather, might pave the way for a more just and peaceful world.
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/one-hundred-years-ago-einstein-was-given-heros-welcome-americas-
jews-180977386/
I know the mainstream is to ignore history; but yeah.
Einstein was against it, but infinitely too little too late;
>"my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain, especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight without a Jewish state. We are no longer the Jews of the Maccabee period. A return to a nation in the political sense of the word would be equivalent to turning away from the spiritualization of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.”
I keep mentioning the some of the evil people -- but
The names Shamir and so forth should be captioned as well.
www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/albert-einstein-the-pro-palestinian-socialist
>Begin himself had a particularly ugly history: he was closely associated with the paramilitary organization Haganah and had risen up the ranks in the Zionist Irgun terrorist group, which garnered a reputation for attacking British Mandate authorities in Palestine. Irgun and the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir, also murdered hundreds of Palestinians in the Deir Yassin massacre of April 1948. “It is inconceivable,” Einstein and others said in the letter to the Times, “that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.”
.
.
.
In fact the moral weakness of Einstein; should not be ignored.
>Among Einstein’s reasons for rejecting the offer was that he would have to “tell the Israeli people things they would not like to hear.” These “things” likely included Einstein’s belief that the occupation of Palestine was fundamentally antithetical to the nature of Judaism.
www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/albert-einstein-the-pro-palestinian-socialist
“Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.” -- Thomas Mann
>Einstein despised nationalism; he believed it was largely to blame for the global war that had just claimed some 40 million lives. He initially rejected the idea of a Jewish state on those grounds. In a speech to labor leaders some years later, he noted his resistance to the idea “of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power, no matter how modest” and balked at the “narrow nationalism” that would accompany it.
>He also acknowledged the Arab peoples living in Palestine as “kinfolk,” and feared that any attempt to create a Jewish state on Arab land would lead to decades of hostility. In a letter to a colleague, the physicist Paul Ehrenfest, he cautioned that runaway Jewish nationalism “threatens to degenerate into hostility and bigotry.” Einstein hoped that internationalism, rather, might pave the way for a more just and peaceful world.
www.smithsonianmag.com/history/one-hundred-years-ago-einstein-was-given-heros-welcome-americas-
jews-180977386/
I know the mainstream is to ignore history; but yeah.
Einstein was against it, but infinitely too little too late;
>"my awareness of the essential nature of Judaism resists the idea of a Jewish state with borders, an army, and a measure of temporal power no matter how modest. I am afraid of the inner damage Judaism will sustain, especially from the development of a narrow nationalism within our own ranks, against which we have already had to fight without a Jewish state. We are no longer the Jews of the Maccabee period. A return to a nation in the political sense of the word would be equivalent to turning away from the spiritualization of our community which we owe to the genius of our prophets.”
I keep mentioning the some of the evil people -- but
The names Shamir and so forth should be captioned as well.
www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/albert-einstein-the-pro-palestinian-socialist
>Begin himself had a particularly ugly history: he was closely associated with the paramilitary organization Haganah and had risen up the ranks in the Zionist Irgun terrorist group, which garnered a reputation for attacking British Mandate authorities in Palestine. Irgun and the Stern Gang, led by Yitzhak Shamir, also murdered hundreds of Palestinians in the Deir Yassin massacre of April 1948. “It is inconceivable,” Einstein and others said in the letter to the Times, “that those who oppose fascism throughout the world, if correctly informed as to Mr. Begin’s political record and perspectives, could add their names and support to the movement he represents.”
.
.
.
In fact the moral weakness of Einstein; should not be ignored.
>Among Einstein’s reasons for rejecting the offer was that he would have to “tell the Israeli people things they would not like to hear.” These “things” likely included Einstein’s belief that the occupation of Palestine was fundamentally antithetical to the nature of Judaism.
www.currentaffairs.org/2021/07/albert-einstein-the-pro-palestinian-socialist
“Tolerance becomes a crime when applied to evil.” -- Thomas Mann
@Buttercup22 said in #1:
> It's obvious. On purpose. They allowed it to happen to give a pretext for invading Gaza. What other possible explanation could there be, with such a massive attack involving so many major parts? I mean they seem to know every apartment in Gaza that holds combatants, so they say when they bomb them. So how could they miss this? They couldn't.
Nice, your explanation is just like simple math 1+1=87535673 and a half...
> It's obvious. On purpose. They allowed it to happen to give a pretext for invading Gaza. What other possible explanation could there be, with such a massive attack involving so many major parts? I mean they seem to know every apartment in Gaza that holds combatants, so they say when they bomb them. So how could they miss this? They couldn't.
Nice, your explanation is just like simple math 1+1=87535673 and a half...
@Buttercup22 said in #5:
> "How would I be being facetious? Routinely the Palestinians face racism that underestimates their ability to self-govern or to be a functioning state."
> That's so completely disconnected from my beliefs and intent. First I think it would be nearly impossible for ANY nation on earth mount this kind of attack while under the Israeli microscope. But also because of the Israeli hegemony keeping Gaza residents behind a giant wall and controlling everything that comes in or goes out and also keeping the whole place living in poverty that because of those CIRCUMSTANCES it would be way harder still. It would be like you calling me a racist for thinking I can beat someone at chess who has barely any experience at it when I've been playing all my life. I'm sure when that person has played as many games as me he could beat me. So it's not about that person it's about the CIRCUMSTANCES. Get it?
>
> "So racist the world is that you are automatically accused of antisemitism when you support Palestine because the Western Zionists think it is so absurd to suggest that brown people deserve their own homelands and own autonomy."
> AND I SAID AS MUCH IN ANOTHER THREAD!.
>
> "Palestine has their own cyberwarfare techniques, series of tunnels, methods of disguising movement or knowledge of blindspots, means of deploying rapidly or interrupting intelligence collection."
> I haven't seen any indication that cyberwarfare had anything to do with it. Military computer systems are pretty nearly impossible to break into anyway as they are not connected to the internet. Even with those ways of hiding operations I would expect it would be extremely difficult to pull of attacks of this magnitude unnoticed, especially when you are located right under the thumb of your enemy and they are constant alert and constantly looking out for it.
> Also it seems hard to believe they wouldn't have undercover assets in Palestine and all kinds of electronic methods of surveillance. Granted US intelligence is probably superior to Israel's but think about how Bush got warned the day of the sept 11th attacks about such an attack before they happened because of "chatter" that was picked up on. And that's a tiny group thousands of miles away. How much easier would it be if it was a massive operation right under your nose?
> I have no idea how they could even get so many weapons and ammunition into Gaza when what comes and goes is so controlled by Israel. And on top of all that remember that the area is extremely impoverished barely having enough resources to live. That's in the Palestinian's own words, not my words. It's because my heart goes out to them that I remember all I've heard about how difficult life in that area is and I have anger for the bully Israel. So to call me Islamophobic? Dude, come on. You've got it bass ackwards.
>
> "You respond to criticism with such force! Very impressive but I recommend having a nice back massage or perhaps spending some time with an adorable pet."
> But it was you wasn't it, that after I said something meant to support the Palestinians and that in fact I thought Israel supporters would be very offended by, it was you that miraculously found some way out of the ether to twist and turn what I said to be "Islamophobic"? I was expecting to be attacked by pro Israel people and blam out of left field you say that to me? Man, would be like you compliment your wife on the dinner she cooked for you tonight and she hits you with the frying pan and says, "Oh, you were expecting it to be bad?" Way to find a completely irrational way to be offended.
Y'know, I like talking politics. The fun thing about them is to learn about the various viewpoints of people from around the world. What I don't like is when we stop talking about politics and devolve into an endless argument where you know you can't change the other party's perspective so you just throw swearless insults at one another.
> "How would I be being facetious? Routinely the Palestinians face racism that underestimates their ability to self-govern or to be a functioning state."
> That's so completely disconnected from my beliefs and intent. First I think it would be nearly impossible for ANY nation on earth mount this kind of attack while under the Israeli microscope. But also because of the Israeli hegemony keeping Gaza residents behind a giant wall and controlling everything that comes in or goes out and also keeping the whole place living in poverty that because of those CIRCUMSTANCES it would be way harder still. It would be like you calling me a racist for thinking I can beat someone at chess who has barely any experience at it when I've been playing all my life. I'm sure when that person has played as many games as me he could beat me. So it's not about that person it's about the CIRCUMSTANCES. Get it?
>
> "So racist the world is that you are automatically accused of antisemitism when you support Palestine because the Western Zionists think it is so absurd to suggest that brown people deserve their own homelands and own autonomy."
> AND I SAID AS MUCH IN ANOTHER THREAD!.
>
> "Palestine has their own cyberwarfare techniques, series of tunnels, methods of disguising movement or knowledge of blindspots, means of deploying rapidly or interrupting intelligence collection."
> I haven't seen any indication that cyberwarfare had anything to do with it. Military computer systems are pretty nearly impossible to break into anyway as they are not connected to the internet. Even with those ways of hiding operations I would expect it would be extremely difficult to pull of attacks of this magnitude unnoticed, especially when you are located right under the thumb of your enemy and they are constant alert and constantly looking out for it.
> Also it seems hard to believe they wouldn't have undercover assets in Palestine and all kinds of electronic methods of surveillance. Granted US intelligence is probably superior to Israel's but think about how Bush got warned the day of the sept 11th attacks about such an attack before they happened because of "chatter" that was picked up on. And that's a tiny group thousands of miles away. How much easier would it be if it was a massive operation right under your nose?
> I have no idea how they could even get so many weapons and ammunition into Gaza when what comes and goes is so controlled by Israel. And on top of all that remember that the area is extremely impoverished barely having enough resources to live. That's in the Palestinian's own words, not my words. It's because my heart goes out to them that I remember all I've heard about how difficult life in that area is and I have anger for the bully Israel. So to call me Islamophobic? Dude, come on. You've got it bass ackwards.
>
> "You respond to criticism with such force! Very impressive but I recommend having a nice back massage or perhaps spending some time with an adorable pet."
> But it was you wasn't it, that after I said something meant to support the Palestinians and that in fact I thought Israel supporters would be very offended by, it was you that miraculously found some way out of the ether to twist and turn what I said to be "Islamophobic"? I was expecting to be attacked by pro Israel people and blam out of left field you say that to me? Man, would be like you compliment your wife on the dinner she cooked for you tonight and she hits you with the frying pan and says, "Oh, you were expecting it to be bad?" Way to find a completely irrational way to be offended.
Y'know, I like talking politics. The fun thing about them is to learn about the various viewpoints of people from around the world. What I don't like is when we stop talking about politics and devolve into an endless argument where you know you can't change the other party's perspective so you just throw swearless insults at one another.
There is some information about this now:
>Behind the scenes: The Israeli officials said that on Friday — the day before the attack — Israeli intelligence saw signs of Hamas activity in Gaza that suggested the militant group could have been preparing for an attack.
>As a result, several high-level consultations took place on Friday night to try to understand what the new intelligence meant, the officials said.
>IDF Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi, Shin Bet director Ronen Bar and Aharon Haliva, head of military intelligence, participated in some of these consultations, which discussed whether the irregular activity was a Hamas exercise or initial preparation for an attack.
>Israeli officials said that one of the possibilities that was raised in the consultation was to put IDF forces around Gaza on high alert because of a possible attack.
>But after the consultations, the leaders decided to wait for more intelligence to come in. Several hours later, Hamas attacked.
www.axios.com/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-israel-intelligence-failure-high-alert-shen-bet
>Behind the scenes: The Israeli officials said that on Friday — the day before the attack — Israeli intelligence saw signs of Hamas activity in Gaza that suggested the militant group could have been preparing for an attack.
>As a result, several high-level consultations took place on Friday night to try to understand what the new intelligence meant, the officials said.
>IDF Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi, Shin Bet director Ronen Bar and Aharon Haliva, head of military intelligence, participated in some of these consultations, which discussed whether the irregular activity was a Hamas exercise or initial preparation for an attack.
>Israeli officials said that one of the possibilities that was raised in the consultation was to put IDF forces around Gaza on high alert because of a possible attack.
>But after the consultations, the leaders decided to wait for more intelligence to come in. Several hours later, Hamas attacked.
www.axios.com/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-israel-intelligence-failure-high-alert-shen-bet
Maybe it just fell thru the cracks ?
@Hydrology said in #16:
> There is some information about this now:
>
>
>
> www.axios.com/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-israel-intelligence-failure-high-alert-shen-bet
There are a lot of fakes and a lot of confusion on the subject, obviously there are very difficult questions regarding Israel's conduct before the war, but I suggest not to draw conclusions before the picture becomes clearer and that will take a long time
> There is some information about this now:
>
>
>
> www.axios.com/2023/10/12/hamas-attack-israel-intelligence-failure-high-alert-shen-bet
There are a lot of fakes and a lot of confusion on the subject, obviously there are very difficult questions regarding Israel's conduct before the war, but I suggest not to draw conclusions before the picture becomes clearer and that will take a long time
I don't know what happened in reality and will likely never know, but I don't see why some people on this forum cannot accept the possibility that Israeli intelligence can fail. There seems to be some weird psychological complex going on here.
A "strong" state is after all a complicated system made of one million parts. Error is possible, and very possible, because every single part is primarily aimed at securing its personal gain; no part actually prioritizes the success of the state as a whole over its personal gain.
In other words, this possibility of error stems internally from the way the state is organized; we don't even need to consider the comparative strength of the enemy. To follow the analogy of shoplifting, shoplifting may happen, regardless of the skillfulness of the shoplifter, but just because every shop surveillance system may malfunction.
If you can't accept this possibility of error, and instead feel a desire to prove that a certain state could not have failed, then you may be falling victim to some weird complex, imagining and worshipping the strength of a state, like a fan girl in front of a rock star. Relax man.
A "strong" state is after all a complicated system made of one million parts. Error is possible, and very possible, because every single part is primarily aimed at securing its personal gain; no part actually prioritizes the success of the state as a whole over its personal gain.
In other words, this possibility of error stems internally from the way the state is organized; we don't even need to consider the comparative strength of the enemy. To follow the analogy of shoplifting, shoplifting may happen, regardless of the skillfulness of the shoplifter, but just because every shop surveillance system may malfunction.
If you can't accept this possibility of error, and instead feel a desire to prove that a certain state could not have failed, then you may be falling victim to some weird complex, imagining and worshipping the strength of a state, like a fan girl in front of a rock star. Relax man.
@jmwjjyl said in #19:
> I don't know what happened in reality and will likely never know, but I don't see why some people on this forum cannot accept the possibility that Israeli intelligence can fail. There seems to be some weird psychological complex going on here.
>
> A "strong" state is after all a complicated system made of one million parts. Error is possible, and very possible, because every single part is primarily aimed at securing its personal gain; no part actually prioritizes the success of the state as a whole over its personal gain.
>
> In other words, this possibility of error stems internally from the way the state is organized; we don't even need to consider the comparative strength of the enemy. To follow the analogy of shoplifting, shoplifting may happen, regardless of the skillfulness of the shoplifter, but just because every shop surveillance system may malfunction.
>
> If you can't accept this possibility of error, and instead feel a desire to prove that a certain state could not have failed, then you may be falling victim to some weird complex, imagining and worshipping the strength of a state, like a fan girl in front of a rock star. Relax man.
Also that Gaza attacked when Israel was distracted in there own government, but it is possible for strong governments to have error, like @jmwjjyl said.
> I don't know what happened in reality and will likely never know, but I don't see why some people on this forum cannot accept the possibility that Israeli intelligence can fail. There seems to be some weird psychological complex going on here.
>
> A "strong" state is after all a complicated system made of one million parts. Error is possible, and very possible, because every single part is primarily aimed at securing its personal gain; no part actually prioritizes the success of the state as a whole over its personal gain.
>
> In other words, this possibility of error stems internally from the way the state is organized; we don't even need to consider the comparative strength of the enemy. To follow the analogy of shoplifting, shoplifting may happen, regardless of the skillfulness of the shoplifter, but just because every shop surveillance system may malfunction.
>
> If you can't accept this possibility of error, and instead feel a desire to prove that a certain state could not have failed, then you may be falling victim to some weird complex, imagining and worshipping the strength of a state, like a fan girl in front of a rock star. Relax man.
Also that Gaza attacked when Israel was distracted in there own government, but it is possible for strong governments to have error, like @jmwjjyl said.
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