An observation about morality:
It is often heard in these discussions that "god" (or, respectively, his minions) are responsible for all the morals and ethics in the world. Even with atheists - here an example:
@sabutuma said in #59:
> but who makes those rules ? oh yeah the priests , why ? as a way to enforce morality in society or a way to put the fear of god into an innocent , probably a bit of both i bet ,
First off, "morality" is something the average human (yes, there are exceptions) has because humans are social animals and as such need this to survive. There is also no (alive) ant seeking solitude for quite the same reasons. "Morality" in this context simply means not to do things which would harm society (tribe, family, nation, ...). It is quite easy to see that stealing, raping, killing and similar anti-moralic endeavours harm society: they increase the level of precautions everybody has to take and so decrease the efficiency of productive work.
Second, if the only motivation to behave morally for someone is the fear of being punished in afterlife then i don't want to have anything to do with this person, fear or not. Basically this comes down to Thomas Hobbes' (Leviathan and also De Cive) notion that man would act a-social (or, respectively, anti-social) without laws restricting that: "ostendo primo conditionem hominum extra societatem civilem, quam conditionem appellare liceat statum naturae, aliam non esse quam bellum omnium contra omnes; atque in eo bello jus esse omnibus in omnia [demonstrate, in the first place, that the state of men without civil society (which state we may properly call the state of nature) is nothing else but a mere war of all against all; and in that war all men have equal right unto all things]".
He drew upon older sources like Plautus (Asinaria, "Lupus est homo homini, non homo, quom qualis sit non novit" [Man is not a man but a wolf to a stranger.])
Now, think for moment: if you could get away with it without repercussion - would you kill your neighbor just because you could? Would you do it for some money he might have at home? (If you answer these questions with "yes": don't bother to answer, i have no compunction whatsoever conversing any further with you.)
The truth is, people have morals and certain standards for interaction without some invisible friend threatening to torture you after your death - because he "loves" you. It is called conscience. Yes, there are a few people lacking conscience. They are called sociopaths and sociopathy is considered a severe psychological illness.
But let us examine the so-called "morals" of i.e. the christians: no, i won't mention raping children and doing everything to prevent the culprits to be taken or selling the wives and children of priests into slavery (so done in the 11th century, when the celibate became church law). Let us talk about Augustinus, "Doctor Ecclesiae" (the highest praise the church has to offer for a theologician), and his work "De Civitate Dei". There he says the people in heaven will have their endless joy even enhanced by being able to watch clearly ("perfecte") the damned being endlessly tortured in hell.
Apart from questions like "from where does he know that" and similar reality-checks: what is a person who gets off on seeing other people being tortured? This arsehole is cited as a moral authority?? Really?? Well, i be damned!
