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opening mysteries

#1
opening proper names qualifiers:

based on board information:
fianchetto
gambit (couter)

intiative related?
defense
attack

unknown:
variations (seems meaningless other the the proper name or ECO adress)

intriguing:
system...

(making a list from the puzzle layout, more space to browse that opening explorer also the hover board are nice... (and i see my most chosen openings).

> what is a defense/attack

> what is a system.

are those qualifier any help? I supposed system was more about geometric plan that was robust to move ordering or opponent first moves, and a white luxury....

so curious about black equivalents.. can a white system delay (my colle exposure perhaps) allow black to do same? or that would be wasting. google this or that... here we go..

i am looking to minimize critters.. the less unrelated information to store the better, the more i could rely on board logic the better... that is what chess is for me.. give live expectancy... i just want to learn more.. improving secondary.
#2
spill over from thread because it is too much self debate.... musing quality.

On the far end. why do i chew on system. the main google result with using chess opening systems (and adding defition), is that article on chess.com "10 opening systems...." Where the definition is minimalist and emphasizing the presence at some depth of a formation or visible onboard structure (that must have some long term consequence i assume), and tones down the move order sensitivity.

now if we keep down that road of ordering possibly becoming important, then that might restrict the number of opening branches that could be gathered under the term system. Basically down to the opening line set containing a visible relatively non-transient structure affecting the remainder of outcome possible from such position containing that.

I guess that might be my hope, to only be concern about opening for which there are on-board geometric objectives, and i would figure out to get there by my own experience.

the slowest material units being the pawns I already have been made aware that some opening can be associated to certain pawn structure abstractions (meaning classes of position for which we only specify some subset of on board material and their formation/configuration/interaction network). But those openings not only defined by the alternance of SAN moves ,but with strong hints visible on board with long term consequences have already known for such, and many don't get the extra tag of system (am I right? this is tentative budding knowledge for me).

So back to the officially tagged desigantion containin system.. This may have been a recent trend in designation. so perhaps not all openings have been revisited for similar characteristics? Hypothesis. From Colle and the subset of London I have seen, not only the pawns are involved but they do contain much of early tempo expenditure, for the light B intermediate activity but possibly lasting first move. It might be a more precise formation definition..
#3
www.chess.com/forum/view/chess-openings/traditional-openings-vs-opening-systems
chessfox.com/13-different-types-of-chess-openings/
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_opening#Opening_nomenclature

> Opening names usually include one of the terms "opening", "variation", "defense", "gambit" etc, however the terminology is inconsistent and imprecise, and is not a useful basis for classification.[18] Broadly, these terms are used as follows:
........
> System : A method of development that can be used against many different setups by the opponent. Examples include London System, Colle System, Réti System, Barcza System, and Hedgehog System.

Even in the wikipedia article there is a link to "catalan_system" that once clicked reverts to Catalan opening. What was the author intent in putting that system appendix. Idem of Indian system.. Perhaps, some have started using system for branch of children lines that share postion formation signature, or maybe it is a way to give some similarity to the children (it might not even be necessary to be there, for afficionados of prefix moves, to raise their repertoir status to share some of the system aura... (never now about non systematic nomenclatures).

> The Indian systems (1.d4 Nf6) are the most important[23] of the Semi-Closed Games, and warrant separate treatment.
but the link under systems actually lands on defense. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_defence
#4
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess_opening#Opening_nomenclature
> Chess openings are primarily categorized by move sequences.[20]

> [20] This is in contrast to shogi opening theory, which generally categorizes openings by form regardless of the move sequences that brought about the form in what are sometimes called systems in western chess.

AHA!.... going somewhere with notes ... hidden gem? should i put that in my public thread?

Maybe i should have started to play shogi instead. (NNue was first used for those engine, they might be more positionallly advanced in traditions. i should look for early pre-a0 shogi experiments. or handcrafter evaluations. if their tradition started with more on-board vision and whole position emphasis, than the decision ordering... there might be food for organising principles even for chess.... ah perseverance.. thank you wikipedia, where people are not afraid to search objectivity from some complementary collaborative subjectivity..... (well lucky chess is a reproducible object, or it is subject...?)

lichess.org/forum/general-chess-discussion/the-meaning-of-the-word-system-in-opening-names?page=2#13
#5
Shogi. where NNue was gestated first. could it be that they have better positional theory, from their initial traditions.... I hope google has good japanese (it is japanese, i think) translation.... I am accumulating lots of motivation to read some shogi stuff.

Find links from SF NNue github documentation..... might end up in some interesting intersection where the dimensional reduction of the exploded chess euclidean encoding/embedding/maximal representation (also containing the less insightful time saving fractional float precision, single, double, fractional). hopes up...

I guess i need to get me some shogi board on the web... lichess for shogi? mobility rules... etc..

hypothesis: it is more combinatorially complex so it took less time for the myth of the calculator to deflate.... (kidding. or am I?)
my short term memory is either too small or effectively too small by noise interference, that i might be having the same deal with standard chess as shogi practitionners would have.. but better get some data, as fun as speculation like that might be....
#6
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi#
That is, the first rank is
L N S G K G S N L
In the second rank, each player places:
The bishop in the same file as the left knight;
The rook in the same file as the right knight.
In the third rank, the nine pawns are placed one per file.

9 x 9. depending on mobility rules, there may be more symmetry, and a one square center..... but that would not be a reason for a tradition of positional before decision sequence focus in the opening categorization, woulld it.

silver general, gold general, and lance...
3 extra classes. assuming bishop and rook are about mobility chess referential.
now searching in wikipedia article for mobiility rules.... but attention randomly jumped back to google search and behold ....:

LiShogi! lishogi.org/ (seems an adaptation of lichess actually).. my name is dboings over there.. in case some lost soul came by reading here and also wanted to play there.. guess what, it has only correspondence.. what a coincidence... or is it about server connectivity? don't care.

Logy_Games, or Western piece sets look like my best choice for quick comparative view.. my only goal now.

The first one ,seems to be having icons that reminds of the mobility rules (which might be even better than western, for possible mislead, if not exact same geometric mobiliitye in the 3 axes like in standars (horiz, vert, diag).

ok sinking into sleep.. maybe best time to keep wandering?
#8
lishogi.org/learn#/3/3
The silver general
The general moves either forward or diagonally back.
When you promote the silver general his movements are the same as the gold general.

The knight
It moves in an L shape, but only FORWARD!
Promoted knight moves are completely different from the unpromoted knight, but you can notice it moves the same as the gold general, so make sure to study that one thoroughly.
#9
The lance
It can go only forward. much like a 1D rook. (make sure)
After the lance is promoted, it moves differently, but you've already seen this somewhere - same as the gold general.

Promoting your bishop will make it stronger, it will turn into a piece called "the horse".
The promoted bishop moves also diagonally, but it can also go one square up, down, left or right as well.
bug? lishogi.org/learn#/7/2

The rook promotes to the powerful dragon.
Don't forget that you can also promote your piece when you leave the promotion zone.
It can move just like the unpromoted rook, but also one square in any diagonal direction, making it much stronger.

Pawns can move to the square directly in front of them, they capture the same way.
The pawn can also be promoted, the moves are once again the same as the gold general.
#10
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shogi_opening#

what is it with the reentry things.. from absent material.. sound like infinite chess... no wonder tree cataloguing was not a goto strategy for knowledge building....
hard to find rules written (not video) about in-game rules. i finished the training on the lishogi. but does not go into game only individaual movement. might give up making my own mind contrast with chess, and skip for opening.
unfortunately it looks like lishogi is the only site willing to diverge from traditional piece sets and notation. makes for bigger bump.... might not differentiate cirtters on diagrams,....

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