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Where and how Russia's propaganda works

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #3:
> No, but seriously. Here a specially crazy part:
>
> Aha! So they were deleted! And then you tell me we have a fair discussion!
>
> And so it continues. Basically, this article sais Russia did this... And they were banned, and then Russia did xyelse, and got banned.
> They were trying to justify the deleting of all other opinions and the truth. Oder?

You need to work on your reading comprehension. Either that or you're disingenuously taking the quote out of context. Here's the proper context of the quote translated into English:

> From March 2 to 4, there were tens of thousands of tweets with these hashtags. A concerted action, say the researchers in their analysis on the website of the think tank Institute for Strategic Dialogue (ISD). A few days later, only about a quarter of the 80,000 tweets are still available. Several of the accounts that spread the pro-Russian messages were deleted or blocked.
>
> In the West, however, this action was hardly noticed, because it happened mainly in other Twitter spheres, as Miller elaborates on Twitter. With the data forensic methods, it was examined which accounts provided for the distribution, these were clustered for an analysis according to different categories. Miller identifies a total of eight different groups. And most of them would be aimed at audiences in Asia and Africa.
>
> Many of the Twitter accounts were therefore newly created and had few followers. Among them, however, were also long-standing accounts. This and the high density of retweets, i.e. mere redirects without their own comments, suggest that this is a mixture of bots, i.e. purely machine-acting accounts, and "bought" Twitter accounts. It has long been known that real users can be bought for social networks in hundreds or even thousands of packages, especially in Asia.
>
> An analysis by the Digital Forensic Research Lab (DFRLab) of the Atlantic Council think tank comes to very similar conclusions. This study also identified a concerted action lasting a few days, which was virtually the initial spark for pro-Russian propaganda on Twitter.
>
> According to a further study published by Miller and colleagues in the meantime, India is one of the main locations of these groups, but there are also users who address Pakistani and other communities with the languages Urdu and Farsi.
>
> In Africa, according to Miller, nigeria, Kenya and South Africa accounted for most of the postings, partly in combination with another purely commercial network phenomenon: spam. For example, one of the most shared links with a #IstandwithRussia hashtag led to the website of a used car dealer.

In summary: Russia (according to this data forensic analysis) bought a fake grass roots movement on Twitter to rile people in Asia and Africa up against "the west". This happened after the unlawful (according to international law) Russian invasion of Ukraine had already commenced. Twitter deleted a good three quarters of those astroturfing tweets, some for being spam (e.g. attempts to sell used cars).

And in your mind this shows that the west is not having "a fair discussion" and "deleting [...] all other opinions and the truth"?
Seriously?
Did you simply stop reading after the first paragraph of the quote? Or are you deliberately quote mining in order to support your ridiculous claim?
@clousems said in #9:
> Well, I guess Russia IS technically west of the US...
Not geographically, but politically. Or do you say we cannot consider Cuba under Castro eastern?

@Thalassokrator said in #11:
> You need to work on your reading comprehension. Either that or you're disingenuously taking the quote out of context. Here's the proper context of the quote translated into English:
So what at my text is incorrect? My interpretation that pro eastern texts get binned for being politically different?

Your second text is not valid, because I said they were trying to justify the deletition of pro-Russian users. And this is exactly what it is saying. Of course something having to do with cars must be IMMEDIATELY removed!
> And in your mind this shows that the west is not having "a fair discussion" and "deleting [...] all other opinions and the truth"?

> Seriously?
> Did you simply stop reading after the first paragraph of the quote? Or are you deliberately quote mining in order to support your ridiculous claim?

@absicht_MAUERzuBAUEN said in #5:
> Ja. Wo die schranken sein sollen sind ja das, worüber alle streiten. Und manche finden, dass die Zensur zu stark ist, und dass es denn Artikel 3,paragraph 3 im Grundgesetz? Jetzt ist es einfach du musst die Ukraine unterstützen, oder sonst bekommst du xy strafen.
I cannot blame you for not having read my German text. it sais SOME people think it is too censored, the censorship too hard. Now it is simply you have to support Ukraine, or you get xy negative measures. And it is true. Every pro-Russian text got binned and Pro russian account has been restricted.
Can we agree that deleting massages happen in social media platforms?

And if you have no access to other views on the conflict, do you expect to be able to have a fair mind?
@STIPPI said in #8:
> #7 Trump didn’t start any new war. Unlike all other US presidents. You are right, he did not learn how to start wars and bomb countries, as the West did in Yugoslavia, Vietnam, Iraq and dozens of other wars. And he called false news false. The West is the Empire of Lies!

Well putin was 45th's mack. What's the point of not starting war if he was at the same strategically preparing his master's war with what he did with NATO, EU and Ukrain.

Even 45th's father did business with the help of italian and rossian mafia. It's been a legacy in 45th's family to do business with mobs.
Oh dear lord. We've reached a point where he's arguing freedom of speech only exists in totalitarian states.
<Comment deleted by user>
@STIPPI said in #15:
> #14 There are 2 models of freedom of speech in the world.
> 1. Western (USA + Europe). This is "freedom", the prohibition of other opinions by closing sources of information. For example Russia Today and Sputnik. This is freedom from Tchaikovsky and Chekhov, and probably soon, freedom, to burn fires from books. By the way, once in the USSR they also banned the Voice of America and the German Wave) Have you turned into the USSR?) But even in the USSR, Schiller Maupassant Balzac and the Beatles were not banned. You are worse than the USSR Are you scared?
> 2. There is Eastern freedom of speech (the rest of the world Russia China India and others) What is this freedom? Don't be afraid to express your opinion. You do not believe? Look at today's already past issue on 03/29/22 of the program ,, Meeting Place ,, NTV channel. Where one of the Russian participants quite freely condemned the actions of Russia. And nothing will happen to him. Oh yes, you can’t because you are forbidden to watch Russian ,,propaganda ,,)
<Comment deleted by user>
It’s important to keep an open mind. The way the human brain works, it’s very easy to fall into traps.

You will reach conclusions even tho you lack information.
You will link unrelated events.
You will oversimplify or assume the worst.

That’s why it’s so extremely difficult to have a proper discussion about Russia: in the absence of information, how can you refrain from asking hypothetical questions? How can you restrain from drawing imperfect conclusions? You can’t.

For example, as a German, it’s easy to draw parallels between Putin and Hitler. Two expansionistic totalitarian regimes, etc... been there, done that. Ofc those events have completely different context historically. While it’s good to recognize the patterns that hold universal truth (e.g. when it comes to propaganda, freedom of press, freedom of speech or generally freedom of information), if you generalize too much it will hinder your capability to understand what’s going on.

In poker you can focus on your own game and play GTO (game-theory optimum), hoping your opponent has leaks in his game plan that will eventually give you enough money to beat the house. But you can’t prepare for everything when there’s not only 52 cards, but a complex network of intertwined or concurring interests that go beyond the scope of nations and politics and companies and people. It’s complicated, so you need to simplify.

Russia: killing hundreds of thousands of civilians within foreign borders (I’m sure the civilian casualties numbers are way too low, after all who is even keeping track or reporting without electricity?)

Ukraine: holding a grudge against a former oppressive regime that let millions starve to death, occasionally spiking illegal nationalist outbursts of violence and hatred even before 2014. orientating towards EU and NATO not to follow in Chechen and Georgian footsteps.

Im pretty sure this oversimplification is not fair. But even trying hard to complete the picture from Russian side, it will not be possible to understand Putins true motivation if all that gets out is misinformation or silence. And the inhumane and unjustifiable actions being taken speak volumes by themselves.

It’s very sad that in modern Internet times we reached a point where more people are cut off from information than ever and cultural exchange between people has been obstructed for silly hegemonial power poker even tho we should be in golden times of communication.
@STIPPI said in #16:
>
> #14 There are 2 models of freedom of speech in the world.
>1. Western (USA + Europe). This is "freedom", the prohibition of other opinions by closing sources of information. For example Russia Today and Sputnik. This is freedom from Tchaikovsky and Chekhov, and probably soon, freedom, to burn fires from books. By the way, once in the USSR they also banned the Voice of America and the German Wave) Have you turned into the USSR?) But even in the USSR, Schiller Maupassant Balzac and the Beatles were not banned. You are worse than the USSR Are you scared?
> 2. There is Eastern freedom of speech (the rest of the world Russia China India and others) What is this freedom? Don't be afraid to express your opinion. You do not believe? Look at today's already past issue on 03/29/22 of the program ,, Meeting Place ,, NTV channel. Where one of the Russian participants quite freely condemned the actions of Russia. And nothing will happen to him. Oh yes, you can’t because you are forbidden to watch Russian ,,propaganda ,,)

It's clear that you are set in your ways and no amount of evidence would be able to make you doubt your conviction.
For anyone else, nearly everything quoted above is utter nonsense:

1. State sponsored burning of novels by "undesirable" authors is something that was most infamously done in Nazi Germany in the 1930s: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazi_book_burnings
Little to nothing of the kind has occurred in modern times in the west: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Book_burning#Modern_biblioclasm

But it still works well as a slander to try to rile people up. STIPPI wants people to fight in this thread. I won't oblige.

Neither Anton Chekhov's (1860 - 1904) literary works nor Pyotr Ilyich Tchaikovsky's (1840 -1893) musical works are legally banned anywhere in the west. On the contrary, they both are revered by many.

Now, of course there's a kernel of truth to STIPPI's post. That's how it usually goes. Take something that has at least some truth to it, then completely blow it out of proportion. The kernel of truth is that, like all countries in the world, western countries also have a certain number of idiotic and xenophobic inhabitants. Such tendencies tend to flare up during times of international conflict (we can see this throughout history). This has lead some individuals, private companies and institutions to decide to "show their support" for Ukraine in less than helpful ways in the past couple of weeks.
I (and many others) agree that renaming dishes or cancelling performances of musical pieces composed by long-dead Russian composers doesn't do a thing for the people in Ukraine and only alienates our society further. That's why such acts have received significant backlash (and decisions have often been reversed). And that's why such acts are freely criticised in the western media, see for example this article in the British newspaper The Guardian:
www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2022/mar/23/russia-protests-vodka-mustard-poutine

2. So you have one anecdote in support of your ridiculous claim that you can speak your mind in Russia or China without fear of repercussions? Wow. Anecdotes are simply that. What matters is the broad picture.

Why is it that independent (not state controlled) organisations rank Russia and China so poorly when it comes to democracy or freedom of press then? In 2021 Russia was ranked 124 in the world (out of 167 ranked countries) in terms of democracy, corresponding to a classification as an "authoritarian regime". Similarly, China was ranked 148 in the world in terms of democracy (also an authoritarian regime). This is according to the Democracy Index published by the private parent company of the UK-based newspaper The Economist: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

If we look at Freedom of press in both countries, we see that Russia was ranked 150 in the world (out of 180 ranked countries) in terms of freedom of press according to Reporters Without Borders in 2021: rsf.org/en/russia
China was ranked 177 in the world: rsf.org/en/china

Feel free to compare this to western hellscapes like Norway, Finland, the Netherlands, Portugal, Ireland, just to name a few:
rsf.org/en/ranking/2021

As to the "[...] one of the Russian participants quite freely condemned the actions of Russia. And nothing will happen to him." part. I wouldn't be too sure:
Here's a list of Russian assassinations: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Soviet_and_Russian_assassinations
Not including enemies of Putin who died in mysterious circumstances:
www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/23/here-are-ten-critics-of-vladimir-putin-who-died-violently-or-in-suspicious-ways/

Here's a (surprisingly extensive) list of killed Russian journalists:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia#Under_Putin_(2000-2008;_incl._2nd_Chechen_conflict)
Caveat: "It is worth considering that while not all murders can be linked directly to the Kremlin, the frequency of these murders and their effects on Russian independent media certainly suggest complacency on the part of law enforcement officials."

There have also been several targeted assassinations of Russian opposition politicians (example: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Assassination_of_Boris_Nemtsov), double agents and other undesirables, some of which happened outside of Russia, often using chemical weapons to kill or seriously poison/injure the victims. One of the more prominent ones is the 2018 Poisoning of Sergei Skripal and his daughter Yulia Skripal in England:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poisoning_of_Sergei_and_Yulia_Skripal

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