Personally I think most chess.com users cheat. Lichess users cheat sometimes but then I get a refund later so i dont mind.
@Stefanxd #2
Very very very well said. Flawless.
There is nothing to add or take away from that comment.
You are exactly correct.
@JohnShepard
I covered this in the video.
Nobody cheated, everyone played good, but ONLY because of this manufactured atmosphere of suspicion, that's been created NOT by the cheaters, but by the most talky-talky loose-tongues in the forums, there is now an echo-chamber of exponentially increasing suspicion.
Nobody cheated. So what was the problem?
Suspicion. 100% suspicion.
My video explains how we solve this problem.
My video explains how we can use that exact same echo-chamber to our benefit where we can actually solve this issue.
Very very very well said. Flawless.
There is nothing to add or take away from that comment.
You are exactly correct.
@JohnShepard
I covered this in the video.
Nobody cheated, everyone played good, but ONLY because of this manufactured atmosphere of suspicion, that's been created NOT by the cheaters, but by the most talky-talky loose-tongues in the forums, there is now an echo-chamber of exponentially increasing suspicion.
Nobody cheated. So what was the problem?
Suspicion. 100% suspicion.
My video explains how we solve this problem.
My video explains how we can use that exact same echo-chamber to our benefit where we can actually solve this issue.
@Onyx_Chess
You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with. Your actions don't match the ideals you espouse. Feces in the eye. Really? Your 2% number is made up their is no evidence to support it. Granted there is no evidence to support my number either which is why I stated it as a belief and not a fact. You should learn to do the same. Stating that someone who complains about an offense is worse than the people who commit it is ludicrous. By your logic the justice system that accuses someone of murder is worse than the murderer.
You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with. Your actions don't match the ideals you espouse. Feces in the eye. Really? Your 2% number is made up their is no evidence to support it. Granted there is no evidence to support my number either which is why I stated it as a belief and not a fact. You should learn to do the same. Stating that someone who complains about an offense is worse than the people who commit it is ludicrous. By your logic the justice system that accuses someone of murder is worse than the murderer.
@JohnShepard So I'll do my best to address your original question, namely: When do you guys think that your opponent could be dishonest?
Accusations of cheating are commonplace and I'd guess are unfounded at least half of the time and probably more often than that. When my suspicions are aroused, I'll run a computer analysis on the game and see if it contains mistakes and blunders. If it does, I accept that my suspicions were baseless and move on.
If I find the player committed no mistakes and no blunders and just 1 or 2 inaccuracies, I'll investigate further. I'll take a look at the player's last 10 wins and see if there are multiple games with 0 mistakes and 0 blunders. If I see a lot of games like that, I'll file a report.
In almost a year and a half, I've probably filed no more than a dozen reports. Granted, there's no way I'm uncovering all the cheats because my method won't work if a player plays alongside an engine and only occasionally "borrows" a move from the computer. Those cheats, who bounce back and forth between their own moves and the computer's moves, are hard to detect. That said, I do believe that cheating is not as common as you might think -- but it definitely occurs and is by no means rare.
Edit: I'll also add that I find the comments of a couple people on this board charging that players who discuss cheating are somehow worse than the cheaters both stupid and offensive. Talk about losing perspective.
Accusations of cheating are commonplace and I'd guess are unfounded at least half of the time and probably more often than that. When my suspicions are aroused, I'll run a computer analysis on the game and see if it contains mistakes and blunders. If it does, I accept that my suspicions were baseless and move on.
If I find the player committed no mistakes and no blunders and just 1 or 2 inaccuracies, I'll investigate further. I'll take a look at the player's last 10 wins and see if there are multiple games with 0 mistakes and 0 blunders. If I see a lot of games like that, I'll file a report.
In almost a year and a half, I've probably filed no more than a dozen reports. Granted, there's no way I'm uncovering all the cheats because my method won't work if a player plays alongside an engine and only occasionally "borrows" a move from the computer. Those cheats, who bounce back and forth between their own moves and the computer's moves, are hard to detect. That said, I do believe that cheating is not as common as you might think -- but it definitely occurs and is by no means rare.
Edit: I'll also add that I find the comments of a couple people on this board charging that players who discuss cheating are somehow worse than the cheaters both stupid and offensive. Talk about losing perspective.
@Tkc74
1. "You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with."
Re-directing focus to discuss the amount of honour and integrity that I have, instead of explaining how suspicion doesn't create cheaters, a foul atmosphere, and make spoil of everything that it comes in contact with, is a red-herring ad hominem.
2. "You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with."
What I'm vehement about is your misbehaviour and the ways that it damages the community that I'm well-vested in.
When you elevate suspicion, much less unnecessarily, much less untruthfully, you are causing harm in a myriad of different ways.
Blasting off with a schizophrenic estimation about how many people you think are out there cheating, could never possibly help anything; however, I can show and prove where it negatively impacts facets 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', and that's just at a cursory glance.
Your self-indulgent, careless talk, has real-life problematic consequences.
3. "Your actions don't match the ideals you espouse. Feces in the eye. Really?"
Yes. Really.
Just because you project a real crappy outlook on the Lichess community...an outlook that is slanderous, ignorant, and categorically proven to be completely false...an outlook that is an insult to those of us that actually work hard to make Lichess as great, outstanding, and exceptional as it can be...doesn't mean that this community is actually in the dilapidated state of affairs that *YOU* claim that it is.
If the extent of the damage was merely a bruise to the ego, nobody would really care enough to bring it up.
But when the extent of the damage causes actual multi-faceted harm, then it becomes a different discussion entirely.
I naturally stand in vehement opposition against anything that disrupts Lichess.
Most would say that this exemplifies honour and integrity.
Look. Stop saying things that have only harmful effects, and watch how fast we're best friends again.
This isn't about "difference of opinion".
This is about damage.
4. "Your 2% number is made up their is no evidence to support it. Granted there is no evidence to support my number either which is why I stated it as a belief and not a fact."
*a*) There is PLENTY of evidence to support my number, namely that I have an established record of successfully reporting many cheaters. I can't see it being too far south of a 70% success rate.
Where is your record at?
Did you know that about 100% of the people who sound the same way that you do, who come to the forums to whine about cheating, have reported VERY few cheaters, and in most cases, NONE AT ALL?
This is not conjecture. This is an established fact.
It's frequent that the admins will comment, "All of this complaining about cheating, and you've reported NOBODY in the last 2 years." < - - - VERY COMMON.
Now, it's possible that out of the DOZENS that have come here to put their raw-ignorance on FULL display by complaining about "the rampant '50%' cheating problem", that you are actually the very first to have reported any substantial number of cheaters...but I naturally doubt it.
My money is on the fact that you are like all of the rest.
Just as ignorant.
Just as much a part of the problem.
Just as useless.
Just as counter-productive.
Just as 'sit-and-whine-and-let-everyone-else-solve-the-issue-while-I-use-my-keyboard-to-make-it-worse.'
I have a proven track record of identifying and successfully helping evict cheaters from Lichess.
My proven track record allows me to speak on the matter:
My 2% calculation is based on the fact that I routinely and successfully identify cheaters. I obviously have a good grip on when I am, and am not, being cheated. I recognize suspicious gameplay.
My 2% calculation is based on the fact that I can interpolate, extrapolate, assign a maximum margin of +/- error, and then get a rock solid grip on the actual amount of cheating that is taking place by confirming and re-confirming that equation.
i) My 2% calculation is based on the fact that if I play 20 games, win 6, lose 4, that obviously all 4 of those games weren't all computers, because that would mean that I'm the best chess player in the world and never lose against my own rating bracket.
Once I begin to understand how far I am from #1 in the world, I can easily interpolate the amount of my chess-kinfolk that sit near/around my rating, that will be able to lay waste to my best efforts at least 5 out of 10 times.
ii) My 2% calculation is based not only on the raw logic above in terms of understanding the AMOUNT of people that can defeat me at the board...but then also enters the discussion of "quality of win".
The idea that "all checkmates are equal" is a stupid idea.
The idea that "all middle-games that led to a checkmate are equal" is a stupid idea.
The idea that "the only thing we can decipher and understand is the W/L/D. Everything else is completely ambiguous, confusing, clandestine, and occult. We'll just have to leave it all to faith and opinion" is a very stupid idea.
Yes, the fact that someone like you, would look at someone like me, and infer that, "You don't know that all of your losses weren't engine induced! You can't prove that! You can't tell if you're cheated or not! You're just as oblivious as I am!" will go a very long way to explaining why I am reacting to the damage that you're causing, let alone your pompous attitude.
Unless you're going state the useless fact that, "100% of the people that you play could be turning on the engine for one move and then turning it back off and you'd never know." then my expertise on the matter stands, not yours.
By the way, I'm a measly 2000 on this site!
If I can smell a rat with the efficacy and proficiency that I do, then 2200s must have them nearly locked down. If 2200s nearly have the rats locked down, then the +2400s on the anti-cheat squad must have us all in very good care.
Add in their engines and algorithms, and you're playing in the most secure spot online.
Where cheatcom has always had a "just enough" attitude, Lichess has always had a "what's the best that we can do?" attitude. And it shows. And now Lichess has problem with +/- 2% cheaters, while cheatcom is crawling with a 50% rat infestation.
*b*) EVEN IF my number wasn't logically accurate to reality, which it most definitely is, the effect of everyone here thinking that "1:2 people cheat" is obviously completely DEVASTATING, compared to everyone here thinking that it's 1:50.
So the effect is crystal clear, where EVEN IF it was 1:2, which it absolutely is not, we'd STILL be much quicker to publicize 1:50 for the health of the community.
Are you now beginning to understand where my contention with your position lies?
It's not personal...it's the fact that you're wrong, slanderous, insult the hard work of the community, cause cheating, pollute the atmosphere and encourage what should be natural "chess buddies" to instead be launching accusations, fighting one another, looking at everyone sideways, and turning on engines for revenge, for fun, for curiosity, or for whatever other reason their feces-infested cranial-cavities want to contrive.
Besides being complete lies, the ideas that you are communicating are erosive.
They are acutely harmful.
They actually do no good.
They actually do only bad.
Yes. Anyone contributing to the obvious and blatant degradation of my community will be vehemently opposed until they smarten up and contribute 'benefit' instead of 'cost'.
5. "Stating that someone who complains about an offense is worse than the people who commit it is ludicrous. By your logic the justice system that accuses someone of murder is worse than the murderer."
This is a red-herring distraction and I can't count the amount of logical fallacies in that statement.
Look, I'll gladly accept this statement after you prove, with irrefutable evidence, how charging people with murder will directly and indirectly cause other people to murder.
Hint: Intelligent people use metaphors on murky ideas where clarity can sometimes be gained.
Fact: Fallacious thinkers, employers of pseudo-logic, use metaphors on clear ideas in order to obfuscate and make murky their position.
You've signaled the latter.
-
Tkc74, thank you for being a case study.
I'm sure that anyone that wanted to learn more about the issue has now had an opportunity to learn those things from me.
With all that said, the BEST discussions about cheating are all at cheatcom, I mean chess.com.
I'm willing to bet that you would get much better interaction over there.
You should definitely go over there and type the word "cheat" as many times as you can over there.
That would make good sense.
Go do that.
Over there.
Play chess here at Lichess with the non-cheaters.
Talk about cheaters over there at cheatcom.
-
To conclude, I just want to reiterate:
Stop saying things that have only harmful effects, and watch how fast we're best friends again.
NO. HARD. FEELINGS.
1. "You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with."
Re-directing focus to discuss the amount of honour and integrity that I have, instead of explaining how suspicion doesn't create cheaters, a foul atmosphere, and make spoil of everything that it comes in contact with, is a red-herring ad hominem.
2. "You talk about honor and integrity yet launch into a vehement personal attack on someone who posts something you don't agree with."
What I'm vehement about is your misbehaviour and the ways that it damages the community that I'm well-vested in.
When you elevate suspicion, much less unnecessarily, much less untruthfully, you are causing harm in a myriad of different ways.
Blasting off with a schizophrenic estimation about how many people you think are out there cheating, could never possibly help anything; however, I can show and prove where it negatively impacts facets 'A', 'B', 'C', 'D', and that's just at a cursory glance.
Your self-indulgent, careless talk, has real-life problematic consequences.
3. "Your actions don't match the ideals you espouse. Feces in the eye. Really?"
Yes. Really.
Just because you project a real crappy outlook on the Lichess community...an outlook that is slanderous, ignorant, and categorically proven to be completely false...an outlook that is an insult to those of us that actually work hard to make Lichess as great, outstanding, and exceptional as it can be...doesn't mean that this community is actually in the dilapidated state of affairs that *YOU* claim that it is.
If the extent of the damage was merely a bruise to the ego, nobody would really care enough to bring it up.
But when the extent of the damage causes actual multi-faceted harm, then it becomes a different discussion entirely.
I naturally stand in vehement opposition against anything that disrupts Lichess.
Most would say that this exemplifies honour and integrity.
Look. Stop saying things that have only harmful effects, and watch how fast we're best friends again.
This isn't about "difference of opinion".
This is about damage.
4. "Your 2% number is made up their is no evidence to support it. Granted there is no evidence to support my number either which is why I stated it as a belief and not a fact."
*a*) There is PLENTY of evidence to support my number, namely that I have an established record of successfully reporting many cheaters. I can't see it being too far south of a 70% success rate.
Where is your record at?
Did you know that about 100% of the people who sound the same way that you do, who come to the forums to whine about cheating, have reported VERY few cheaters, and in most cases, NONE AT ALL?
This is not conjecture. This is an established fact.
It's frequent that the admins will comment, "All of this complaining about cheating, and you've reported NOBODY in the last 2 years." < - - - VERY COMMON.
Now, it's possible that out of the DOZENS that have come here to put their raw-ignorance on FULL display by complaining about "the rampant '50%' cheating problem", that you are actually the very first to have reported any substantial number of cheaters...but I naturally doubt it.
My money is on the fact that you are like all of the rest.
Just as ignorant.
Just as much a part of the problem.
Just as useless.
Just as counter-productive.
Just as 'sit-and-whine-and-let-everyone-else-solve-the-issue-while-I-use-my-keyboard-to-make-it-worse.'
I have a proven track record of identifying and successfully helping evict cheaters from Lichess.
My proven track record allows me to speak on the matter:
My 2% calculation is based on the fact that I routinely and successfully identify cheaters. I obviously have a good grip on when I am, and am not, being cheated. I recognize suspicious gameplay.
My 2% calculation is based on the fact that I can interpolate, extrapolate, assign a maximum margin of +/- error, and then get a rock solid grip on the actual amount of cheating that is taking place by confirming and re-confirming that equation.
i) My 2% calculation is based on the fact that if I play 20 games, win 6, lose 4, that obviously all 4 of those games weren't all computers, because that would mean that I'm the best chess player in the world and never lose against my own rating bracket.
Once I begin to understand how far I am from #1 in the world, I can easily interpolate the amount of my chess-kinfolk that sit near/around my rating, that will be able to lay waste to my best efforts at least 5 out of 10 times.
ii) My 2% calculation is based not only on the raw logic above in terms of understanding the AMOUNT of people that can defeat me at the board...but then also enters the discussion of "quality of win".
The idea that "all checkmates are equal" is a stupid idea.
The idea that "all middle-games that led to a checkmate are equal" is a stupid idea.
The idea that "the only thing we can decipher and understand is the W/L/D. Everything else is completely ambiguous, confusing, clandestine, and occult. We'll just have to leave it all to faith and opinion" is a very stupid idea.
Yes, the fact that someone like you, would look at someone like me, and infer that, "You don't know that all of your losses weren't engine induced! You can't prove that! You can't tell if you're cheated or not! You're just as oblivious as I am!" will go a very long way to explaining why I am reacting to the damage that you're causing, let alone your pompous attitude.
Unless you're going state the useless fact that, "100% of the people that you play could be turning on the engine for one move and then turning it back off and you'd never know." then my expertise on the matter stands, not yours.
By the way, I'm a measly 2000 on this site!
If I can smell a rat with the efficacy and proficiency that I do, then 2200s must have them nearly locked down. If 2200s nearly have the rats locked down, then the +2400s on the anti-cheat squad must have us all in very good care.
Add in their engines and algorithms, and you're playing in the most secure spot online.
Where cheatcom has always had a "just enough" attitude, Lichess has always had a "what's the best that we can do?" attitude. And it shows. And now Lichess has problem with +/- 2% cheaters, while cheatcom is crawling with a 50% rat infestation.
*b*) EVEN IF my number wasn't logically accurate to reality, which it most definitely is, the effect of everyone here thinking that "1:2 people cheat" is obviously completely DEVASTATING, compared to everyone here thinking that it's 1:50.
So the effect is crystal clear, where EVEN IF it was 1:2, which it absolutely is not, we'd STILL be much quicker to publicize 1:50 for the health of the community.
Are you now beginning to understand where my contention with your position lies?
It's not personal...it's the fact that you're wrong, slanderous, insult the hard work of the community, cause cheating, pollute the atmosphere and encourage what should be natural "chess buddies" to instead be launching accusations, fighting one another, looking at everyone sideways, and turning on engines for revenge, for fun, for curiosity, or for whatever other reason their feces-infested cranial-cavities want to contrive.
Besides being complete lies, the ideas that you are communicating are erosive.
They are acutely harmful.
They actually do no good.
They actually do only bad.
Yes. Anyone contributing to the obvious and blatant degradation of my community will be vehemently opposed until they smarten up and contribute 'benefit' instead of 'cost'.
5. "Stating that someone who complains about an offense is worse than the people who commit it is ludicrous. By your logic the justice system that accuses someone of murder is worse than the murderer."
This is a red-herring distraction and I can't count the amount of logical fallacies in that statement.
Look, I'll gladly accept this statement after you prove, with irrefutable evidence, how charging people with murder will directly and indirectly cause other people to murder.
Hint: Intelligent people use metaphors on murky ideas where clarity can sometimes be gained.
Fact: Fallacious thinkers, employers of pseudo-logic, use metaphors on clear ideas in order to obfuscate and make murky their position.
You've signaled the latter.
-
Tkc74, thank you for being a case study.
I'm sure that anyone that wanted to learn more about the issue has now had an opportunity to learn those things from me.
With all that said, the BEST discussions about cheating are all at cheatcom, I mean chess.com.
I'm willing to bet that you would get much better interaction over there.
You should definitely go over there and type the word "cheat" as many times as you can over there.
That would make good sense.
Go do that.
Over there.
Play chess here at Lichess with the non-cheaters.
Talk about cheaters over there at cheatcom.
-
To conclude, I just want to reiterate:
Stop saying things that have only harmful effects, and watch how fast we're best friends again.
NO. HARD. FEELINGS.
@Onyx_Chess
Im not going to lie and say that I read your entire rant because really who has that kind of time. Once I saw you once again resorting to insults and personal attacks I moved on. You argue like a Trump supporter. Once someone states an opinion you can't handle its straight to defamation and lies.
Im not going to lie and say that I read your entire rant because really who has that kind of time. Once I saw you once again resorting to insults and personal attacks I moved on. You argue like a Trump supporter. Once someone states an opinion you can't handle its straight to defamation and lies.
@Onyx_Chess "I'm sure that anyone that wanted to learn more about the issue has now had an opportunity to learn those things from me."
Well, someone is awfully full of himself tonight, isn't he? LOL!
Seriously, Onyx, take a few deep breaths. Sheesh.
Well, someone is awfully full of himself tonight, isn't he? LOL!
Seriously, Onyx, take a few deep breaths. Sheesh.
Oh my god, Onyx. Maybe there are less than 50% of cheaters - but I am sure less than 50% readers ... of your postings. I do not think those sermons help.
I don't understand this attitude as how many possible cheaters you should have reported. I never report anybody because it is too difficult to decide. In your eyes I am an unworthy user.
But again ... the whole problem can never be as big as some people seem to believe. Maybe there are some 2% (I think it is a very sensible estimation) who think it worthwhile to move pieces on the screen according to some software's calculation. But most of the players would not do this. Not because of super honesty, but because the action of cheating must really be boring. Most people won't have the patience to move without thinking.
I can understand cheating if you really can earn something just as I can understand why somebody would steal - but in online chess it will always be quite a neglectable issue.
I don't understand this attitude as how many possible cheaters you should have reported. I never report anybody because it is too difficult to decide. In your eyes I am an unworthy user.
But again ... the whole problem can never be as big as some people seem to believe. Maybe there are some 2% (I think it is a very sensible estimation) who think it worthwhile to move pieces on the screen according to some software's calculation. But most of the players would not do this. Not because of super honesty, but because the action of cheating must really be boring. Most people won't have the patience to move without thinking.
I can understand cheating if you really can earn something just as I can understand why somebody would steal - but in online chess it will always be quite a neglectable issue.
Jeez..such walls of text..even the Kasparov-thread is more readable by now
@Sybotes
You aren't on my radar at all.
I appreciated your comment #4.
It was actually a helpful and productive comment.
I think it would be great if everyone would take time to report obvious cheaters, but I also understand how it can be very tough to tell until players start reaching 1800.
@GSP0113
Tell the whole story:
"I'm sure that anyone that wanted to learn more about the issue has now had an opportunity to learn those things from me." was in response to someone stating that they are sure that there is a vast amount of people, up to 50%, that are cheating.
I took the time and the energy to prove the record straight, and capped it with that sentence.
It was meant to prove and highlight that "2%" is informed, and "50%" is opinionated.
@Tkc74
I was mainly using your post to expand on the matter.
It was probable, out the gate, that you were most likely a lost cause.
If it was just you and I alone, I would ignore you and leave the room.
On the other hand, if what you are saying produces a negative effect in onlookers, then it makes sense to correct that.
@Everyone
Enough about me.
How about we pay attention to what happens when we elevate suspicion and multiply cheating by infesting the environment with slanderous, harmful, insulting, ignorant, lies, about how "there is a vast epidemic with cheating", and how "incompetent Lichess is to combat it"?
How about you help me shout down that speech instead?
You aren't on my radar at all.
I appreciated your comment #4.
It was actually a helpful and productive comment.
I think it would be great if everyone would take time to report obvious cheaters, but I also understand how it can be very tough to tell until players start reaching 1800.
@GSP0113
Tell the whole story:
"I'm sure that anyone that wanted to learn more about the issue has now had an opportunity to learn those things from me." was in response to someone stating that they are sure that there is a vast amount of people, up to 50%, that are cheating.
I took the time and the energy to prove the record straight, and capped it with that sentence.
It was meant to prove and highlight that "2%" is informed, and "50%" is opinionated.
@Tkc74
I was mainly using your post to expand on the matter.
It was probable, out the gate, that you were most likely a lost cause.
If it was just you and I alone, I would ignore you and leave the room.
On the other hand, if what you are saying produces a negative effect in onlookers, then it makes sense to correct that.
@Everyone
Enough about me.
How about we pay attention to what happens when we elevate suspicion and multiply cheating by infesting the environment with slanderous, harmful, insulting, ignorant, lies, about how "there is a vast epidemic with cheating", and how "incompetent Lichess is to combat it"?
How about you help me shout down that speech instead?
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