Extent of Improvement

@Alice_ex said in #4:
> If you have a good coach, chess community and the energy and motivation and money to study 8-12 hours a day you can probably become a GM in like 5 years

None of that matters and five years is fantasy Chess is an extremely crowded and tough profession you have to win FIDE classic time control tournaments and beat really strong GM's to earn your norms not easy unless your a talented child prodigy 17-22 years is much more like it with no guarantee you'll get it some never do.

@MightyRoadie said in #21:
> None of that matters and five years is fantasy Chess is an extremely crowded and tough profession you have to win FIDE classic time control tournaments and beat really strong GM's to earn your norms not easy unless your a talented child prodigy 17-22 years is much more like it with no guarantee you'll get it some never do.

I would say the fantasy is the premise that you can study effectively for 8-12 hours a day every day for 5 years. Everybody needs breaks, everybody wastes time and studies sub-optimally, and most people just aren't that interested in chess, not to mention you need to make money somehow too. Most people also don't start off with a master-level coach. For a real person, that 5 years becomes more like 20 years.

@Alice_ex said in #14:
> This is a misconception. Learning a language is actually easier and faster as an adult. Children take a very long time to learn language, 8+ years, whereas an adult can become fluent in 4 years or less. The main difference is that adults can take advantage of what they already know as well as formal learning methods, whereas children need to pick up the language without instruction.

Not a misconception. I should have clarified that I was talking about a 2nd language. Not sure where you got the 8 years figure from. I moved to the US as a 10 year old and I could speak fluently within 6 months. My parents took longer and never lost their accent. Studies back this up too:

www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/11/do-kids-really-learn-languages-faster-than-adults/

"The results showed that people up to about 17 or 18 years old seemed great at picking up English as a second language and becoming fully fluent. But then after that, people’s abilities to reach a level of mastery similar to a native speaker dropped markedly, seeming to strongly support the idea that there really is a Critical Period of learning of language and that it does apply to second languages. "

As far as chess goes, has there been a single GM who didn't start playing as a kid? I don't know of any.

@greysensei said in #23:
> www.todayifoundout.com/index.php/2019/11/do-kids-really-learn-languages-faster-than-adults/

This whole article is about how adults learn a second language faster and easier than children.

"the truth is ... it turns out adults actually learn languages faster and, in some sense, more easily than kids."

Back on the topic of chess.

If you think about what an adult learner has to go through to become a GM it becomes obvious why there are none. Making a 180 in your adult life to spend all your time and money learning chess is insanity. It's already hard enough to become a GM when you have everything going for you.

Consider female GMs. Out of 1500+ GMs, only 37 are female, and that's just because culturally they are not expected to pursue chess. Now imagine the cultural perception of an adult learning chess. You will get no support. You will spend 5-20 years of your life and all your money doing something that everybody thinks is impossible.

If you quit at any time, it will have been for nothing. Even if you succeed, by that time you will be old, probably in your 40s or 50s at least. That's why there are no GMs that started as adults, not because it's impossible, but because it's highly unlikely.

Give me 2 million dollars. I will focus studying and training chess. I will focus on physical gym training. I will focus travelling joining all international chess open. In ten years I will be a very strong GM.

It's naive to think that everyone can become a GM. I don't even think the Polgar experiment is representative and we're talking about dedicated kids there (perhaps pushed too much as well). Master level players are self-selected. The work is indispensable but that doesn't mean everyone would be equally receptive to the training - just like in anything else. Those who aren't wired for it aren't likely to even attempt it in a serious way. This doesn't mean that they'd necessarily be capable of it. People often see a lack of effort and corresponding lack of results as being an inseparable equation which scales linearly. More effort = better results but there's usually some plateau where natural talent starts to become a limiting factor. With that said, one shouldn't be discouraged. Even many GMs probably felt stuck at times and never thought they'd reach that level.

Anyway, I don't need to become a GM to enjoy the beauty and challenge of chess. Competing and testing ideas is also fun.

Improve to 1500 to GM? LOLOLOLOL.

You can improve fast to roughly 2000-2200, say under a year or 2. But to GM lvl? Nah bro,

Its like saying how much you need to train to beat Usain Bolt to a race. You can improve a lot, but there is a biological factor to it. Same in chess, those guys have something else we usually dont possess. Super high IQ, photographic memory, alone or combined, they are wired slightly or greatly different than us and that gives them an edge.

Still, it is not like you cant make it, But it will take years of grinding for improvement and to get a couple of points here and there, and a very very constant study basis, its really hard to keep a 4-5 hour study pattern for years. It takes a lot of discipline to get to the top 1%. Its not like new times with instant gratification, this stuff is done the proper way, old school, with a massive amount of work behind it.

The most i was able to maintain a 4 hour study a day was for 6 months and it was driving me insane.

In order to maintain & go up a bit in rating AFTER the (Almost) HIGHEST level you achieve you also will have to stay on top of your game & get better as players in the rating pool have improved over time as well . We are talking 33 years or a third of a century since I became an NM in 1988 . So I was 23 now I'm 56 ... You will also find yourselves if you are devoted still studying chess OTHERWISE I have seen so many deteriorate

Here you actually have to use the rule of "10,000 hours" . which means if you practice any profession for 10,000 hours you will become a expert in it. but as always it not easy. Ex . If you practice chess for 3 hours per day then 10 years later [ 2031-2032]] you might become a GM . Another ex. If you practice 6 hours per day then 5 years later [ 2026-2027] you might become GM. It will be really be tough to achieve . but if you made your mind anything is possible. Hope that this was helpful .