lichess.org
Donate

I can convert you from Christianity to Freedom :)

#31
@WassimBerbar said in #30:
> But what are those information the someone didn't have or didn't accept? Freedom is a religion?!

it is rather to be considered as philosophy,
freedom is, in a way, the mind which thinks and sometimes makes mistakes, unlike the "heart and soul" which are supposed to be pure in the good believer. freedom could then be seen as an additional means to see and understand religion even better, and to become one with faith, that is to say to be freed from all bad activities to have a pure and serene of religion.

(you all know that I am close to the ideas of Pascal, Socrates and Plato, that is to say the compromise between religious values and rationality).

But if you want a real example during the history :
In the Terror during the French Revolution, (the french revolution was first the active culmination of certain ideas of the Enlightenment, before to fell to the Terror), freedom was almost transformed into a state "religion", that is to say that a Supreme Being was venerated in place of Christian cults, and freedom was sometimes celebrated as an entity (with statues and offerings). it was marginal in history and if the population adhered to the values of freedom, they did not adhere to this overly complex cult, which only lasted 4-5 years before being scattered enough to no longer be practiced and therefore disappear. Some Freemasons also considered freedom as a universal entity/value, which they glorified and praised.
#32
It is not true that "the gospels" are the only mentions of Jesus in historical documents. And Josephus is not the only person to provide an alternative mention, historically.

It often does not please those who hope to "free" themselves from faith, but few serious historians doubt that Jesus really lived. Those who doubt that Jesus ever existed are bucking the conventional belief, not going with the flow.

If you wish to have the hairs stand up on the back of your neck, find and read the Letter of Pilate to Claudius (that's Pontius Pilate to the roman emperor). An ancient document discovered more than a century ago in the library of the Vatican that purports to be, and definitely seems when read to be, an official report made by Pontius Pilate to Claudius containing an eyewitness account of the crucifixion, and an account from the tomb of Jesus passed along apparently from soldiers stationed at that tomb to prevent the disciples from seizing the body. It is filled with detail, and when one reads it, one may have a difficult time telling oneself that it is a mere invention.

Furthermore, the gospels themselves ARE historical documents, something often overlooked by some who hope to quickly dismiss them. Written by different authors, and copied over again and again and so preserved, and yet having a great deal in common and disagreeing over small things, just as eyewitnesses to the same event typically disagree over minor details in real life. The fact that Christians value them doesn't somehow cause them not to be documents or not to be historical accounts. To the contrary.

There is far more detailed and reliable evidence of Jesus's existence and life than there is for the life of Thales of Miletus (arguably the first real mathematician) or that very Pythagoras whose probably approximate equation (sorry, Euclid, but non-Euclidean geometry may turn out to describe reality better) we all learn in middle school.

Furthermore, there's the archeology. Many of the places described in the gospel accounts are still there and can be seen. That by itself, of course, is not convincing, since novels describe true locations also. But it certainly can add SOME weight.

And then there's this: merely a few decades after Jesus's death, people were DYING rather than give up their faith in Jesus. Why? Because that faith was seeded by people who purported, apparently very convincingly, to be living disciples and eyewitnesses to inexplicable miracles -- including some who were willing to go to prison and die themselves rather than renounce their own faith.

Maybe they were all fooled? You can argue that. But they were a lot closer to the facts than we are. And they were apparently so convinced that they were literally willing to die rather than to turn their backs under duress.

Finally, there's the present. And all of the last many centuries that might as well be the present -- that is to say, ordinary centuries in which Jesus was not walking around in Judea preaching and working miracles out in the open, that people could see and report to each other. I mean centuries in which people could simply feel the truth in their bones and sometimes, much more often than we could ever possibly document, experience what seem to be genuine miracles in their own lives, in accordance with their faith.

We can choose to believe they were all lying or crazy or fooled, I guess. But there's an awful lot of them. And they don't all seem to be crazy liars or fools. They typically just seem to be ordinary people -- often sick people who, oddly, seemed to survive the unsurvivable.

Faith can be inconvenient and even uncomfortable, though. No doubt. And nobody should be forced to have it, I agree. Indeed, it seems contrary to force upon somebody a genuine and precious gift.

By the way, @Ifancy_potato , thank you, you are very kind and I appreciate it.
#33
@clousems said in #13:
> I've adopted a policy of reporting all threads that specifically seek to disprove a religion or to convert people-- no good comes from them.
I am right away adopting the policy of reporting every clousems' post.
#35
I love the smell of horsey in the morning! Thanks!
#37
@thenceforth said in #33:
> I am right away adopting the policy of reporting every clousems' post.
You're not the first, and I am sure you won't be the last ;)

This topic has been archived and can no longer be replied to.