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Placement Chess Varient

#8 @boorchess
Oh um... hm, yeah; I kind of did jump in on the hijacking of your thread >.> I guess this puts a good number of variant suggestions in one thread...? Anyway, even by this early point I think it already is what it is. Hopefully it'll lead to discussion about which variants are better for the evolution of chess and why; though aside from the evolution of chess I think there's merit to even variations that are less complicated than standard chess, to help either ease weaker players into the world of chess without them ending up building poor habits in more complex variations when playing against other weaker players closer to their own skill level or just let the weaker players have their fun amongst themselves. Personally, to be completely honest I still struggle with seeing even 2 moves ahead; I tend to lose positions Stockfish later tells me should've been winning by ~3 or 4 or so, or better yet just blunder my queen a few moves before the move where she actually gets taken if not outright. So while more complex variants certainly have my interest I think that I would probably do well to use a less complex variant to get a better grasp of chess before diving headlong into anything more complex. Do I have the right idea, or does using more complex variants including standard chess itself to learn actually accelerate the building of better habits; contrary to what I currently think + feel?

While it goes almost without saying that some formations are going to prove to be at the top of the pack in Screen Chess when the game is analyzed more thoroughly, I think the very nature of the game lends itself to some rock-paper-scissors relations between different decent starting formations. The decent formations for black are completely different than the decent formations for white; white formations are all about several strong opening options almost regardless of what black has set up and then being able to also stay defended while continuing the plan of attack, black formations are all about being able to respond to white's opening without losing any important pieces in the opening and then being able to counterattack in the turns following the first few. A large part of skill at Screen Chess is having just a few good starting formations so that you don't get caught maining your rock in a rock-paper-scissors style environment, though also have enough practice with your chosen formations that you'll know exactly what to do with them when you play games using them.

I don't fully understand why you prefer the idea of having "an actual opening phase" for Screen Chess. You can't see your opponent putting their pieces down whether you're playing as black or as white; so I don't have a grasp of how having players place their pieces into a formation during a 16-turn opening phase instead of creating, saving, and loading starting formations would have any impact on the starting formation meta. If anything, I think people making starting positions on their own time and then loading them when entering a game would most likely be healthier overall for the Screen Chess meta; because that way people would not be under the pressure of an opponent waiting for them to finish placing their pieces when they're thinking about their starting formations.

A fusion of Screen Chess and Placement Chess that has a 16-turn opening phase where both players can see both sides of the board while taking turns placing each of their 16 pieces during the opening phase is something that I can easily see as an incredibly interesting variant of its own, though I believe the metas of the resulting fusion and Screen Chess itself would most likely be; while intrinsically linked; almost entirely different. Starting formations would have stronger similarities to Screen Chess starting formations, though decent skill at Placement Chess would practically be a prerequisite to even attempting to play the fusion. The fusion could be aptly named "Screen Placement Chess".
Screen chess is not really a serious contender for the next step in chess in my opinion because there is too much of a chance factor (you can literally start the game from a losing position depending on your opponents formation). Then again judging from the variants that are offered in lichess it seems there is not much interest in having an option that could be the next official version of chess.

Despite the complexity of your response, it remains clear at least to me that Bronstein's suggestion of placement chess is a natural and logical progression to classical chess that ALLOWS THE PLAYERS TO STILL CHOOSE TO PLAY THE STANDARD STARTING POSITION OF CHESS!!! Indeed by having such an option we can then continue theoretical debates about what opening formation is the best and still maintain that tradition of chess (theoretical debates of preparation are still possible OR not depending on the preference of the players).

Sorry about that, but it is frustrating having to say the same thing over again.
I believe the technical term is "perfect information game".
Chess and Placement Chess are perfect information games because there is no hidden data that is committed to before it is revealed, for this reason it makes sense to think about solving chess, and the theoretical result, while unknown, is well defined.
Screen Chess is not a perfect information game, and there may be sets of starting positions with a rock-paper-scissors relationship, and the theoretical best play may be a probabilistic "mixed strategy", with each player trying to outguess the other in the starting phase.
en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfect_information
Since we take turns placing the pieces it adds a whole new dimension to the information depth. In both versions once the pieces were set then the game would be a perfect information to a god like computer entity.

Obviously there are good, bad and most likely drawn outcomes for any given set (up). We can see this already in certain chess openings that have been worked out to a draw in many lines or a loss.

Placement chess or Bronstein Chess has many advantages for developing a creative and individual style compared to random ugly positions that are generated by Fischer Random and the chaotic nature of Screen Chess.

Hopefully this variant will be implemented in the future on one of the chess servers.

Personally I find not knowing what formation my opponent in Screen Chess will bring to the board to be part of the charm of Screen Chess; though I do see the point about Screen Chess being a variant that changes a perfect information game into an imperfect information game. So to retain the perfect information aspect of Chess, I can see how Placement Chess would be the next logical evolution. I still don't think that invalidates other variants entirely though; just because a variation doesn't have potential to become the next official version or even have perfect information doesn't mean that people wouldn't have fun playing it. I think fun value is important too; it's a game, after all. I hope some other variants, hopefully including Screen Chess, are added to Lichess alongside Placement Chess. Screen Placement Chess is also something that I really want now that the idea of it is in my head, regardless of what name it actually ends up going by.
That variant is a perfect information game, so it is more similar to Placement Chess than Screen Chess.
Except for the rook-king rule, that variant has the simple "white sets up first" rule as in Aarima, this rule gives black the advantage of knowing white's setup while setting up, but white retains the first move advantage, so it is not entirely clear which side is better off.
The same rule can be used in Placement Chess; white sets up 8 pieces, then black sets up 8 pieces, then white starts the game.
The other version, where players alternate setting up (white sets up one piece, black sets up one piece...black sets up the last piece, white starts the game) also gives black an informational advantage in exchange for the first move advantage, but the informational advantage here is much smaller.
Which variant? Sittuyin? I think something in the Wikipedia article for it stated that a curtain is placed across the middle of the board to prevent the players from seeing what the other is setting up; so at least in tournament play if not always casual play, it's an imperfect information game. That makes it more similar to Screen Chess than to Placement Chess.

By this point in the conversation "Screen Placement Chess" sounds like using the piece placement rules of Placement Chess with the imperfect information rule of Screen Chess.... A variation that uses the piece placement rules of Screen Chess but played as a perfect information game like Placement Chess where the players take turns placing pieces during an opening phase with both players knowing where their opponent's pieces have been placed thus far... "Free Placement Chess"...? What should the name of such a variation be?
There is a way to hack lichess to allow for placement chess. We could have a screen share and two players use one board editor to setup a position. One player would have to just text the placement moves. I would do this if we could stream it for the community to enjoy.

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